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Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt?
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I didn't really pay close attention to the Lance Armstrong drug saga. He'd been a hero and the whole drug thing was kinda demoralizing. I'd have to say tho, that I never really understood why the powers-that-be went after him so hard. Educate me pls.

Maybe the International folks (UCI) didn't like him?
Maybe the US folks wanted to demonstrate their commitment to clean racing?
Maybe I'm wrong in my perception that the aggressiveness of the pursuit of him was unusual?

Your thoughts?

For those of you that might be angry types by nature and see a dark cloud everywhere, I do not "troll", I do not deliberately try to stir up trouble. Ever. So pls can we skip that drama?

"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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RangerGress wrote:
I didn't really pay close attention to the Lance Armstrong drug saga. He'd been a hero and the whole drug thing was kinda demoralizing. I'd have to say tho, that I never really understood why the powers-that-be went after him so hard. Educate me pls.

Maybe the International folks (UCI) didn't like him?
Maybe the US folks wanted to demonstrate their commitment to clean racing?
Maybe I'm wrong in my perception that the aggressiveness of the pursuit of him was unusual?

Your thoughts?

For those of you that might be angry types by nature and see a dark cloud everywhere, I do not "troll", I do not deliberately try to stir up trouble. Ever. So pls can we skip that drama?

I've read some of the books and watched some of the documentaries. It seemed they wanted to get him for a few reasons:
1. He won a lot
2. Hardly anyone that is at that level is clean but they couldn't catch him so it became a mission
3. Most on the tour knew he wasn't clean, he was winning and they wanted to get even
4. Jealousy - they couldn't dope as well as him (The riders)
5. He constantly challenged them to catch him

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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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He cheated. He broke the rules. I understand he is your special boy but rules aren't set up to be flexible on the amount of likeability. You can be upset by this because he made you feel good but again, he cheated.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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TheRef65 wrote:
RangerGress wrote:
I didn't really pay close attention to the Lance Armstrong drug saga. He'd been a hero and the whole drug thing was kinda demoralizing. I'd have to say tho, that I never really understood why the powers-that-be went after him so hard. Educate me pls.

Maybe the International folks (UCI) didn't like him?
Maybe the US folks wanted to demonstrate their commitment to clean racing?
Maybe I'm wrong in my perception that the aggressiveness of the pursuit of him was unusual?

Your thoughts?

For those of you that might be angry types by nature and see a dark cloud everywhere, I do not "troll", I do not deliberately try to stir up trouble. Ever. So pls can we skip that drama?


I've read some of the books and watched some of the documentaries. It seemed they wanted to get him for a few reasons:
1. He won a lot
2. Hardly anyone that is at that level is clean but they couldn't catch him so it became a mission
3. Most on the tour knew he wasn't clean, he was winning and they wanted to get even
4. Jealousy - they couldn't dope as well as him (The riders)
5. He constantly challenged them to catch him

Add to this, he apparently mistreated, threatened, and lied to a lot of people along the way, giving not too many people reason to defend him, and plenty reason to rat him out.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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3. Most on the tour knew he wasn't clean, he was winning and they wanted to get even

They knew he was dirty because they were dirty and still couldn't beat him.

In a sense Lance won fair and square.

”look, duffy is a great lover. the best!” -

slowman (owner of slowtwitch.com) 10/01/17
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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He's a Cowboys fan

https://soundcloud.com/...with-lance-armstrong

That's all I need


****

To be honest, I enjoyed his "Stages" Podcast during the TDF

Death Rides A Pale Cow
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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He was a colossal dick to a lot of people, which came back to bite him in the ass. On top of that he maintained his innocence long after the doping horse was out of the barn and everyone else had been caught and/or more or less come clean on the nature of the game.

That put a huge target on his back.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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And he was a world class asshole to anyone daring to question him about doping. I believe that alone contributed more to his fall from grace than the actual doping.

I raced SuperFrog in 2012 when LA was attempting his triathlon comeback. The race was less than a month from the release of USADA's reasoned decision. LA was treated like a god by the race organizers (got to park his RV in transition), athletes and spectators where tripping over themselves to be around him. After the race he gave a long impassioned speech about those who don't believe in miracles, yada, yada, yada. Anyone who has been paying attention leading up to USADA's report knew what was coming, it was was so eye opening to what another human being act to oblivious to the facts surrounding his own situation.

LA's absolute refusal to tell the truth in the face of overwhelming evidence he and his teams doped very much led to possible an over-aggressive prosecution. But, it's a bed of his own making.

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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
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3. Most on the tour knew he wasn't clean, he was winning and they wanted to get even


They knew he was dirty because they were dirty and still couldn't beat him.

In a sense Lance won fair and square.

I'd agree with this. He focused his entire team on one race and bested everyone for 7 years. Repeat winning is hard.

But, I'd say the reason for the hate is that he was an evangelist for clean racing while lying about racing dirty. Drugs, threats, retribution, etc. Lance professed to have his clean "god" on his side, all others be damned. For that, the extra hate.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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Given how doping was systemic throughout the sport, I don't really understand the logic behind why he's taken the fall so hard. I understand how he's taken the fall, just not the logic behind it in comparison to others within the sport. Hell, on Mt. Ventoux stands a monument to Tom Simpson, who died during the race because of his doping. Pantani is still regarded as a hero. Ulrich wasn't stripped of titles. It was everywhere. But as for why he's taken the fall, it's a combo of the following, in my opinion:
  • He was brash, brazen, consistently a "fuck everyone" attitude. He burned bridges with the same frequency and carelessness that the rest of us take a leak. You can't make enemies with his consistency and not have a weakness exposed and turned on you.
  • What he did in the sport itself wasn't supposed to happen with a North American, dominating the biggest race on the calendar as he did. He was apparently more well-accepted and regarded in France than one would think, but still wasn't really liked. Nonetheless, it wasn't the UCI that undid him.
  • His comeback rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. Landis, the only other person ever to have a TdF title stripped from his epic 2006 race (man, he was whiskey fueled!), wanted a spot on Team Radioshack when Lance came back in 2009. Lance put a stop to that, which pissed Landis off, and Landis went postal (see what I did there?), initiating the whistleblower investigation.
  • U.S.A.D.A. wants to prove a point that "Americans are clean and better than that." It's BS, really. Lance's teammates were given fake suspensions -- 6 months suspended from competition during their normal off seasons...so just like any other off season for them. Lance was the face of it all, profited financially the most. USADA has already banned him for life from any WADA types of events, U.S. Postal hasn't lost any money from L.A.'s doping, sounds like U.S. Postal actually did quite well from their publicity, and the only reason U.S. Postal may be in a financial bind now has much more to do with changes to how people do commerce & the regulations imposed on them than it does with a fringe-sport athlete that the vast majority of the public doesn't follow enough to have a clue that U.S. Postal was even a sponsor let alone the details of a lawsuit against him.
  • Allegedly, the doping program he was a part of was unfair because it was more advanced, more technical, and far superior to all of the other programs out at the time, run on a team-wide scale, highly organized in a way that was different than individual athletes doing their own doping. At best, that argument against L.A. seems dubious to me.

It's really a joke. Lots of people profited and won't be returning their earnings; Trek wouldn't be the company they are without L.A. It's also funny to me that the most esteemed cyclist in history, Eddie Merckx (whose brand of bike I'm about to go for a lunchtime ride on), was booted out of a Giro for doping & I believe temporarily banned a second time...yet he's still loved almost universally and invited to be the face of many UCI events. Indurian is still a god in Spain. Vinokoruv almost certainly purchased races, not an uncommon practice at one time, and UCI now turns a blind eye to his involvement in Astana. And on and on and on.


I don't like the attitude L.A. comported himself with, don't like that even in his now seemingly more humble state he still seems to want to come across with the arrogance of being "the man," don't like that the sport was fueled by doping, but if you have high level sports you're going to have doping. I just don't see him as being any more guilty in that respect than anyone else was. Guilty of being the biggest asshole in the sport? Absolutely. But that's not what the lawsuit is about.



RangerGress wrote:
I didn't really pay close attention to the Lance Armstrong drug saga. He'd been a hero and the whole drug thing was kinda demoralizing. I'd have to say tho, that I never really understood why the powers-that-be went after him so hard. Educate me pls.


Maybe the International folks (UCI) didn't like him?
Maybe the US folks wanted to demonstrate their commitment to clean racing?
Maybe I'm wrong in my perception that the aggressiveness of the pursuit of him was unusual?

Your thoughts?

For those of you that might be angry types by nature and see a dark cloud everywhere, I do not "troll", I do not deliberately try to stir up trouble. Ever. So pls can we skip that drama?

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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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TheRef65 wrote:

I've read some of the books and watched some of the documentaries. It seemed they wanted to get him for a few reasons:
1. He won a lot
2. Hardly anyone that is at that level is clean but they couldn't catch him so it became a mission
3. Most on the tour knew he wasn't clean, he was winning and they wanted to get even
4. Jealousy - they couldn't dope as well as him (The riders)
5. He constantly challenged them to catch him

Almost none of that....

There are plenty of other riders who were doping and very very difficult to beat. There was no extensive pursuit of them (Ulrich, Pantani, Riis, the list goes on and on). And not much was out of jealousy that they couldn't dope as well as him, as most of the people testifying against him were his own teammates.

Plain and simple, he was an asshole to a lot of people, and made enemies. I think he's changed in recent years, but during his career as a pro cyclist, he was an ass.

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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [mck414] [ In reply to ]
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mck414 wrote:
And he was a world class asshole to anyone daring to question him about doping. I believe that alone contributed more to his fall from grace than the actual doping.

I raced SuperFrog in 2012 when LA was attempting his triathlon comeback. The race was less than a month from the release of USADA's reasoned decision. LA was treated like a god by the race organizers (got to park his RV in transition), athletes and spectators where tripping over themselves to be around him. After the race he gave a long impassioned speech about those who don't believe in miracles, yada, yada, yada. Anyone who has been paying attention leading up to USADA's report knew what was coming, it was was so eye opening to what another human being act to oblivious to the facts surrounding his own situation.

LA's absolute refusal to tell the truth in the face of overwhelming evidence he and his teams doped very much led to possible an over-aggressive prosecution. But, it's a bed of his own making.


Exactly the bold-faced lying when everyone who had been paying attention knew the score for the better part of a decade was unreal.

But what ultimately did him in was his treatment of Landis, and when he didn't lie down and take it and decided to rat him out, the dam broke.
Last edited by: ThisIsIt: Aug 8, 17 10:53
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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I've read some of the books and watched some of the documentaries. It seemed they wanted to get him for a few reasons:
1. He won a lot
2. Hardly anyone that is at that level is clean but they couldn't catch him so it became a mission
3. Most on the tour knew he wasn't clean, he was winning and they wanted to get even
4. Jealousy - they couldn't dope as well as him (The riders)
5. He constantly challenged them to catch him

Lance was under suspicion for a number of reasons. He was the lead rider in a sport full of drug problems so that is the main one. However, there was also his close friendship with Michelle Ferrari, a many known for his knowledge on drugs. There were accusations by Floyd Landis which turned out to be true and a book called L.A Confidential that outlined a very detailed description of Lance's involvement with drugs.

Then you have the other stories of Lance being the ring leader in getting drugs (by using Motoman to deliver them to the team). There was his intimidation of teammates to take them, attempts to silence any other rider who tried to speak out against drugs. He spent years threatening lawsuits against anyone who raised the drug issue. He tried to destroy the career of David Walsh, the author of L.A Confidential.

He also hid behind his charity and his cancer, suggesting anyone who almost died from his disease would never risk his life for a bike race. He would deflect attention away from drugs on to his charitable deeds.

And despite all that and much, much more, people still say the only reason they went after Lance is because they were jealous...






You're such a Trump ball washer! - Duffy - Feb 8, 17 13:18
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
Quote:
3. Most on the tour knew he wasn't clean, he was winning and they wanted to get even


They knew he was dirty because they were dirty and still couldn't beat him.

In a sense Lance won fair and square.

Well there was a sense that he went too far to the point of it being unseemly. As far as we know no one else had a whole team blood doping. And not everyone had access to blood doping which seems to be have been a prerequisite at the time for winning a grand tour.

So yes theoretically it was level playing field but practically it wasn't.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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You knew something was fishy when Hincapie was outclimbing the climbers...

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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
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Humans are an irrational lot. We believe more in Christ figures than in reason. Lance was a loud mouth asshole and we as a nation love that. He did an amazing thing with cancer and that gave him the Jesus of assholes. America loves that more than anything. He broke the rules but the rules don't matter when the rule breaker makes us feel all goopy in our goopy pants area. That is why I say legalize doping. We want the performances and we aren't able to hold everyone to the same standards. Legalize and move on.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
You knew something was fishy when Hincapie was outclimbing the climbers...

After sitting on the front for hours day after day...

If I remember right there were times when Hincapie would finally pull off on the last climb and all that would be left were a few other Postal riders and about an equal number of the favorites with no team mates.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
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Love you man, but no.

Call me an optimist, but I think that anti-doping is getting better, and sport in general is getting cleaner than in the heyday of doping from the 80's through 2007. As I am sure you already know, pro cyclists stopped doping in 2007.

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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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Does anyone think that the fact that an American became the face of cycling in which has mostly been a European sport played a factor?
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [AndysStrongAle] [ In reply to ]
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nope. the "witch hunt" was led by Americans.

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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [AndysStrongAle] [ In reply to ]
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AndysStrongAle wrote:
Does anyone think that the fact that an American became the face of cycling in which has mostly been a European sport played a factor?

No, Verbruggen protected Lance because the U.S. market was a huge untapped market for professional cycling.

It was the USADA that took down Armstrong not Europeans. And Armstrong would have likely been able to maintain the lying forever if it weren't for Landis ratting him out, another American.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Well optimist this realist says that advantages will always be seeked beyond the rules because it pays to. Look at Lance. He is laid bare as a cheater who acted like a mafia thug and the masses still jerk off to his image. It's a joke. This thread proves that the anti doping rules are just a mask we wear to not see our true selves. We want the winner. We want them to win bigger. We want the doper performances. Let's all come to terms with who are and legalize it.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
nope. the "witch hunt" was led by Americans.

Then I blame the NFL, MLB and NBA for "funding the witch hunt", they don't want cycling becoming the face of sports entertainment and stealing their revenue.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
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<<He broke the rules but the rules don't matter when the rule breaker makes us feel all goopy in our goopy pants area>>

You can turn a phrase every now and again, I'll give you that...:)
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Witch hunt? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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A lot of response here, especially how he was a bad guy and all. But it really is simple, he pissed of Tygart and almost caused him to lose his job. So the one and single guy that had all the power to go after him no matter what, he pissed off to no end. So that "one" guy used his resources to get back at him, no matter what. And is still doing so today(at least all that he put in motion)

All the rest is just noise used to justify peoples positions, and those are all over the place..
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