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Happy 64th to Israel!

 

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YaHey

Apr 27, 12 14:17

Post #76 of 126 (1497 views)
Re: Happy 64th to Israel! [Ski racerz] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I hope they put some balloons on the apartheid West Bank wall (I know the people that stand in line 2 hours each way a day to get to work or getting home are blowing horns today).




(This post was edited by YaHey on Apr 27, 12 14:19)


Gurudriver10

Apr 27, 12 14:35

Post #77 of 126 (1487 views)
Re: Happy 64th to Israel! [undrh20] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

undrh20 wrote:
Gurudriver10 wrote:
Not to mention, there is a huge mosque (Dome of the Rock, 900 AD?) sitting on the Temple mound, which is an intentional "f u" to the Jews. It still stands and the Jews could've knocked it down anytime. The Jews are tolerant of Christians and Muslims. The Muslims? Well, they established a mosque on holy grounds, which is nothing more than laying claim to ground in an ancient family squabble!


No offense, but the mosques are a part of the present reality on the ground as well and need to be respected.

And religious orthodoxies are a big part of the problem because they don't accommodate the compromises required to negotiate effectively.

Huh?


Gurudriver10

Apr 27, 12 14:36

Post #78 of 126 (1487 views)
Re: Happy 64th to Israel! [YaHey] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

YaHey wrote:
To be historically accurate, muslims have ruled the land of Israel for a LOT longer that jews have. In fact, jews had never ruled Israel. Their only claim to it is because it is the land given to them by God, but beyond that, there is little to no historical basis for their claim that the land has ever truly belonged to them.

Someone hasn't read their OT and is completely ignorant of history!!


YaHey

Apr 27, 12 15:02

Post #79 of 126 (1477 views)
Re: Happy 64th to Israel! [Gurudriver10] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

read the history of the land starting at when it was part of the Ottoman Empire, and then work your way back. Tell me which religion or group of people ruled that land.


undrh20

Apr 27, 12 16:11

Post #80 of 126 (1467 views)
Re: Happy 64th to Israel! [dave_w] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

dave_w wrote:
They are being respected, that's his point. Something that bears repeating is that for Muslims, any land that they're ever ruled, is rightfully theirs. An early diatribe by OBL included a point about remembering Andalusia, that part of Spain where Muslims, at their height, took over rule from Christians. Well during the crusades (also called the "reconquest") Christians came back in and kicked Muslim ass, but in the minds of OBL and most Muslims, that is rightfully Muslim land. So it is with Israel; though the israelites were there thousands of years ago, it has since been ruled by some Muslim potentate, and is therefore eternally Muslim ground.

It is not accurate to say that for Muslims any land that they ever ruled is rightfully theirs. This may be the perspective of radicals like OBL, but that doesn't make it policy for all Muslims. The Ottoman Empire was sustained by Islam, but I don't believe that modern day Turkey is laying any claim to Israel although they controlled the area for 600 years until the end of WWI.

The radicals on both sides need to be marginalized. A compromise needs to reached based on today's political realities, not religious dogma.


softrun

Apr 27, 12 16:14

Post #81 of 126 (1466 views)
Re: Happy 64th to Israel! [Ski racerz] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Ski racerz wrote:
Happy 64th Birthday to Israel! I will (hopefully) visit again this year!

"His contributions to the world’s list of great names in literature, science, art, music, finance, medicine and abstruse learning are also very out of proportion to the weakness of his numbers. He has made a marvelous fight in this world in all ages; and has done it with his hands tied behind him. He could be vain of himself and be excused for it. The Egyptians, the Babylonians and the Persians rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greeks and Romans followed and made a vast noise, and they were gone; other people have sprung up and held their torch high for a time but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, and have vanished.

The Jew saw them all, survived them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert but aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jews; all other forces pass, but he remains." --Mark Twain
And the reason you put this politicly charged comment here is?


Ski racerz

Apr 27, 12 16:20

Post #82 of 126 (1464 views)
Re: Happy 64th to Israel! [softrun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Visit the LR often?

Politically charged? Happy Independence Day is only political if you happen to ascribe to the monkey theses of the United Nations!


dave_w

Apr 27, 12 16:56

Post #83 of 126 (1457 views)
Re: Happy 64th to Israel! [undrh20] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

undrh20 wrote:
dave_w wrote:
They are being respected, that's his point. Something that bears repeating is that for Muslims, any land that they're ever ruled, is rightfully theirs. An early diatribe by OBL included a point about remembering Andalusia, that part of Spain where Muslims, at their height, took over rule from Christians. Well during the crusades (also called the "reconquest") Christians came back in and kicked Muslim ass, but in the minds of OBL and most Muslims, that is rightfully Muslim land. So it is with Israel; though the israelites were there thousands of years ago, it has since been ruled by some Muslim potentate, and is therefore eternally Muslim ground.


It is not accurate to say that for Muslims any land that they ever ruled is rightfully theirs. This may be the perspective of radicals like OBL, but that doesn't make it policy for all Muslims. The Ottoman Empire was sustained by Islam, but I don't believe that modern day Turkey is laying any claim to Israel although they controlled the area for 600 years until the end of WWI.

The radicals on both sides need to be marginalized. A compromise needs to reached based on today's political realities, not religious dogma.

Well there's already plenty of other Muslim factions working on Israel's overthrow, so Turkey has little need. The country has also hewn toward a secularism that is rare in the ME for quite some time, but that has been curtailed, and they are going more hardline Islamic over the last few years. Here's an article from today that mentions same: http://articles.boston.com/...y-turkish-parliament

At any rate, you keep saying that "A compromise needs to reached based on today's political realities, not religious dogma", or similar, and that's an attractive sentiment, but reality is that every time Israel cedes an inch of new territory, the missiles and bombers just move that much closer. It takes two willing sides to make a peace.


cerveloguy

Apr 27, 12 17:50

Post #84 of 126 (1448 views)
Re: Happy 64th to Israel! [Ski racerz] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I've stayed out of this because although I strongly believe that it takes two to tango, that by saying so I'll be accused of being anti-Israeli by some of the ST pro Israel zealots by even insinuating that Palistinians are human beings also.

IMHO, the tragedy of Israel is that after 64 yrs the country is no closer to reconcilation with its Arab neighbors than it was in 1948. Just think of where the country and entire area could be now if all the effort was spent in building something rather than fighting each other. How many thousands of innocent people have died in these 64 yrs?

The basis of the problem was the original unwillingness of the Arabs to embrace what the early Jewish settlers brought to the area in terms of Euro culture/education but instead elected to "push them into the sea" rather than accept them as neighbors and exchange with them. On the otherhand Israel was a nation bathed in blood from the start beginning with the guerilla war against the Brits (who never wanted to be there) to the brutality against the Arabs in the first wars when the official policy became to push the Palistinans off their lands. 64 yrs on and what has changed? Its still and eye for an eye mentality.

Let's hope that in 64 yrs from now Israel and its neighbors can accomplish something that they have failed to do in the first 64 yrs.


undrh20

Apr 27, 12 18:31

Post #85 of 126 (1436 views)
Re: Happy 64th to Israel! [dave_w] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

dave_w wrote:
At any rate, you keep saying that "A compromise needs to reached based on today's political realities, not religious dogma", or similar, and that's an attractive sentiment, but reality is that every time Israel cedes an inch of new territory, the missiles and bombers just move that much closer. It takes two willing sides to make a peace.

History has shown that even maintaining vast territories as a buffer zone is no guarantee of added security. Israel's control of the Sinai and Golan did nothing to provide protection in 1973.

You are correct to point out that it takes two willing sides to make peace. Hence the emphasis on compromises based on current realities (recognized by both sides) rather than adherence to immovable positions based on conflicting religious beliefs.

Cerveloguy is spot on with his observations. Both sides would be best served by doing whatever is necessary to end the current cycle of violence and live in peace. Its an amazing place full of wonders, but it is denied its full breadth of beauty by the constant threat of imminent war.


nedbraden

Apr 27, 12 20:34

Post #86 of 126 (1426 views)
Re: Happy 64th to Israel! [YaHey] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

YaHey wrote:
You realize that another 9-10 million non-jews died in German concentration camps, don't you? and that the remaining 100 million were mostly non-military, including many chinese, russians (20+ million), etc.. The holocaust for the jews did happen, but compared to what happened to other peoples in other countries during WWII, it was not the greatest autrocity of the war - no matter how much propraganda you've swallowed (and you've appear to have swallowed a lot). But continue to believe what you want, and I'll believe what I want.

But irregardless of the holocaust, it does not mean the jews were given some special right to take over land and create a nation where one did not exist and to make the inhabitants of that land foreigners in their own land. If you don't think that is what has happened, then you have no clue as to the history of the creation of Israel.

But the jews have paid a terrible price for the land in Israel. They have lost many lives, they have almost no security, live in fear of terrorism, can't travel east, north or south from the borders, and are completely dependent on the propraganda machine to keep sending them money to survive as a nation. They continue to bring in refugees from other countries (mostly Russia now), they are split amongst their views (ultra to multiple sects), and the only bond they have is military service. They must sit around asking themselves why God has chosen them as his people, and not someone else.

I hope to God you never reproduce and if you have then I feel great sorrow for the women that would allow such a piece of shit to violate her and for the spawn that would come from you.


mojozenmaster

Apr 27, 12 21:22

Post #87 of 126 (1420 views)
Re: Happy 64th to Israel! [YaHey] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

You are far enough away from reality that what you write is only a weird interpetation of what you have read somewhere else.

If I had the time, I would write about my families escape from the Nazis, hiding jews in cellars away from Nazis. fighting on the Russian front and the final walk-through of The Führerbunker

Your cavalier attitude towards Jews is too Cavalier

And when they say "never again" they really do mean it.

Back to your history books Yahey.......to explain the last good deed or great innovation Islam has shared with humanity......


**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

(This post was edited by mojozenmaster on Apr 27, 12 21:24)


undrh20

Apr 28, 12 10:37

Post #88 of 126 (1388 views)
Re: Happy 64th to Israel! [dave_w] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Just an interesting perspective to add taken from haaretz.com ( an Israeli news source.)

For states 64 years is actually a very young age. At 64 the U.S. still had slavery in the South, and the Civil War that created the final structure of the federation was still to come. Germany at 64 was still to go through the darkest age of its history, as was Italy. States take a long time to evolve into mature democracies, to develop a culture of bridging between ethnic and religious differences and to de-dramatize politics into what it should be: the craft of managing a country’s conflicting needs, wishes and aspirations pragmatically. From such a historical perspective Israel needs to be compared to states like India, Pakistan and Ghana rather than to today’s Britain or U.S. - and by that standard Israel has been doing phenomenally well. Most of the basic institutions of its democracy are quite stable; its economy has been doing remarkably well in these last years of a world economic crisis and Israel continues to be one of the world’s powerhouses of technological development.

As for making peace without partners, here is another approach deserving of consideration.
http://www.nytimes.com/...t-partners.html?_r=2


cerveloguy

Apr 28, 12 17:35

Post #89 of 126 (1358 views)
Re: Happy 64th to Israel! [undrh20] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

"From such a historical perspective Israel needs to be compared to states like India, Pakistan and Ghana rather than to today’s Britain or U.S"

I would totally disagree with that. The author is basing his opinion on years on the human time line only. The reality is the original Israeli settlers after WWII were displaced Euro refugees who were for the most part highly educated and cultured people, often at the top of the societies from where they came from so had a huge jumpstart and didn't need thousands of years to get Israel where it is. Not a legitimate comparison IMHO. Unfortunately, 64 yrs of conflict has tended to hold them back somewhat.


dave_w

Apr 28, 12 18:02

Post #90 of 126 (1350 views)
Re: Happy 64th to Israel! [cerveloguy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

cerveloguy wrote:
"From such a historical perspective Israel needs to be compared to states like India, Pakistan and Ghana rather than to today’s Britain or U.S"

I would totally disagree with that. The author is basing his opinion on years on the human time line only. The reality is the original Israeli settlers after WWII were displaced Euro refugees who were for the most part highly educated and cultured people, often at the top of the societies from where they came from so had a huge jumpstart and didn't need thousands of years to get Israel where it is. Not a legitimate comparison IMHO. Unfortunately, 64 yrs of conflict has tended to hold them back somewhat.

Sounds like you can see where progress might be effectively the same as those countries, given the larger hurdles that they suffer along with the advantages. Also funny to see it as a 64 yr struggle, when it has been a few millennia. ;)


softrun

Apr 28, 12 18:03

Post #91 of 126 (1350 views)
Re: Happy 64th to Israel! [cerveloguy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

The OP is a shit disturber who just wants to see his post on the top of the list and many, many replies and views and people arguing for and against Israel.. "Happy 64th"?? C'mon, if you would have said 65th or 50th or 70th...OK, but 64th? Did you post "happy 63rd" last year? And "happy 62nd" before that? Gimmie a break...And why "happy 64th Israel"? Can I post "Happy b-day Germany"? Or Iraq or Saudi Arabia...?
What a dumb post...


undrh20

Apr 28, 12 18:27

Post #92 of 126 (1347 views)
Re: Happy 64th to Israel! [cerveloguy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

cerveloguy wrote:
"From such a historical perspective Israel needs to be compared to states like India, Pakistan and Ghana rather than to today’s Britain or U.S" I would totally disagree with that. The author is basing his opinion on years on the human time line only. The reality is the original Israeli settlers after WWII were displaced Euro refugees who were for the most part highly educated and cultured people, often at the top of the societies from where they came from so had a huge jumpstart and didn't need thousands of years to get Israel where it is. Not a legitimate comparison IMHO. Unfortunately, 64 yrs of conflict has tended to hold them back somewhat.

The authors are Israelis who are just making the point that Israel's political, social and economic development should be compared to a nation like India's rather than measuring it on US standards because it has only had statehood for 64 years (similar to India since independence from GB.) The US had to deal with many issues of its own and it took more than 60 years of statehood to resolve them. Cultural and educational factors are an advantage in many respects and Israel's economic development has been impressive, but they are often judged solely by their inability to resolve the Palestinian issue. I think they are saying that Israel is just going through painful exercises similar to those experienced by the US in 1850, 64 years into its own experiment in democracy. Give it time.


cerveloguy

Apr 28, 12 19:05

Post #93 of 126 (1336 views)
Re: Happy 64th to Israel! [undrh20] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

"Give it time."

I agree and I'm hopeful, but let's just hope more progress will be made in the next 64 yrs than has been made the first 64 yrs.


big kahuna

Apr 28, 12 19:06

Post #94 of 126 (1335 views)
Re: Happy 64th to Israel! [softrun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

softrun wrote:
The OP is a shit disturber who just wants to see his post on the top of the list and many, many replies and views and people arguing for and against Israel.. "Happy 64th"?? C'mon, if you would have said 65th or 50th or 70th...OK, but 64th? Did you post "happy 63rd" last year? And "happy 62nd" before that? Gimmie a break...And why "happy 64th Israel"? Can I post "Happy b-day Germany"? Or Iraq or Saudi Arabia...?
What a dumb post...

I think he's Jewish and maybe even Israeli or somebody with close connections to that country. I've been over there a few times and the attitude among many is that each year that they haven't been wiped slick from the face of the planet by any one of their dozens of enemies is a year worth celebrating, that's all.

And there might be some of what you're saying going on, too, of course. ;-) Israel's always a good topic that draws a huge number of views and comments.


cerveloguy

Apr 28, 12 21:09

Post #95 of 126 (1326 views)
Re: Happy 64th to Israel! [big kahuna] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

"I think he's Jewish "

Ya think. :-)

So is my cousin's husband. Get him really drunk and in a bad mood and watch him start screaming about "his people" in Israel despite the fact he's only been there once on a two week visit. His real people are secular from Toronto for several generations and celebrate their Jewishness about once a year. But every now and then he does the "everybody hates me because I'm a Jew" gig, fortunately not very often. Super guy though.... Just needs a reality slap from my cousin once in awhile. :-)



(This post was edited by cerveloguy on Apr 28, 12 21:15)


Rodred

Apr 29, 12 2:44

Post #96 of 126 (1306 views)
Re: Happy 64th to Israel! [softrun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

softrun wrote:
The OP is a shit disturber who just wants to see his post on the top of the list and many, many replies and views and people arguing for and against Israel.. "Happy 64th"?? C'mon, if you would have said 65th or 50th or 70th...OK, but 64th? Did you post "happy 63rd" last year? And "happy 62nd" before that? Gimmie a break...And why "happy 64th Israel"? Can I post "Happy b-day Germany"? Or Iraq or Saudi Arabia...?
What a dumb post...

Surrounded by enemies who want you dead and gone and yet still alive and kicking. Thats plenty of reason to celebrate any number.


~
"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson


undrh20

Apr 29, 12 4:49

Post #97 of 126 (1296 views)
Re: Happy 64th to Israel! [softrun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

softrun wrote:
The OP is a shit disturber who just wants to see his post on the top of the list and many, many replies and views and people arguing for and against Israel.. "Happy 64th"?? C'mon, if you would have said 65th or 50th or 70th...OK, but 64th? Did you post "happy 63rd" last year? And "happy 62nd" before that? Gimmie a break...And why "happy 64th Israel"? Can I post "Happy b-day Germany"? Or Iraq or Saudi Arabia...? What a dumb post...

Dumb post?

Take a good look at all the titles posted for discussion in LR.
No one is obligated to read what doesn't interest them and there doesn't seem to be any restrictions on subject matter. If you want to start a thread on Saudi Arabia's 80th birthday this year, have a go at it, but don't attempt to censor others.


big kahuna

Apr 29, 12 5:47

Post #98 of 126 (1289 views)
Re: Happy 64th to Israel! [cerveloguy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

cerveloguy wrote:
"I think he's Jewish "

Ya think. :-)

So is my cousin's husband. Get him really drunk and in a bad mood and watch him start screaming about "his people" in Israel despite the fact he's only been there once on a two week visit. His real people are secular from Toronto for several generations and celebrate their Jewishness about once a year. But every now and then he does the "everybody hates me because I'm a Jew" gig, fortunately not very often. Super guy though.... Just needs a reality slap from my cousin once in awhile. :-)

Heh. They're all at least honorary members of the The Tribe. Can't say that I blame them for at least trying to give the appearance of sticking together, though. You'd be surprised at the level of casual, if not outright over and hostile, anti-Semitism you see these days, even in polite circles. Once, when I was with my airline, I was meeting with a couple dozen of my rampers (the rank-and-file folks that load and unload the planes and such), and somehow the subject came up about plane travel to the Middle East and Israel, and several of those folks made comments about "the Jews" and how "they" run everything, and a couple even had a DVD that they popped into the ready room's player (the ready room is where they work out of throughout their shift, with 8 to 14 of them stationed in each ready room) that explained all about the "world Jewish power cabal" and all that other sort of nonsense.

Now, all these folks were African American, which is where -- around here in Detroit -- I've found a great deal of such anti-Semitic opinion, to be honest, but they really didn't see anything wrong or unacceptable about such things, and that they felt comfortable in making such remarks to me is kind of an indication of the mainstreaming, if that's the word to use, of such casual or so-called "benign" anti-Semitism. It's "them Jooos" all over again, as the Detroit Tigers' Delmon Young demonstrated when he was arrested in New York City a few days ago, and the thing that reminds folks holding such views the most about "them Jooos" is Israel.

I think it's perfectly fine to be critical of Israel's policies, of course. But folks have got to learn to separate Israeli policies from the fact that the people executing those policies are Jewish, and that Jews don't really control the world. If that was the case, as I patiently explained to my rampers as I confiscated their DVD, then they're doing a pretty poor job of protecting their fellow world-controlling members of the world Jewish power cabal.


YaHey

Apr 29, 12 5:53

Post #99 of 126 (1287 views)
Re: Happy 64th to Israel! [big kahuna] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

How come any discussion about political views on the State of Israel makes a person anti-semitic?


big kahuna

Apr 29, 12 6:51

Post #100 of 126 (1278 views)
Re: Happy 64th to Israel! [YaHey] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

YaHey wrote:
How come any discussion about political views on the State of Israel makes a person anti-semitic?

It doesn't, except when people start saying things like "I hope the Arabs run "them" into the sea," bubalah. Saying stuff like that leaves the distinct impression that one is blaming the dirty Jews for the world's ills yet again. Soon enough, you got pogroms and Kristallnacht starting up all over again.

Criticizing Israel is cool with me, and like every other country it's often deserving of the criticism it gets, but what we also often get is criticism of Jewry itself, just thinly masked by anti-Israel commentary and with no recognition, as others here on both sides of the aisle have pointed out, of the equal culpability of Arabs and Palestinians in this whole mess.

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