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Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences
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I'm not sure where people get the notion you have the right to say anything at any time without reprisals.

https://www.nytimes.com/...neer-fired-memo.html


“I have a legal right to express my concerns about the terms and conditions of my working environment and to bring up potentially illegal behavior, which
is what my document does,” Mr. Damore said.

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TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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TheRef65 wrote:
I'm not sure where people get the notion you have the right to say anything at any time without reprisals.

https://www.nytimes.com/...neer-fired-memo.html


“I have a legal right to express my concerns about the terms and conditions of my working environment and to bring up potentially illegal behavior, which
is what my document does,” Mr. Damore said.

Sure but he seems to have a rather specific claim not the general "freedom of speech" one people often resort to.
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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He's going to sue the shit out of Google...






...and win big.

Disclaimer: the above statements are parody and meant for entertainment purposes only. No sane person would actually hold such views.
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
He's going to sue the shit out of Google...

...and win big.

If it's a jury trial he may win but I think he would lose on appeal.

_____
TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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TheRef65 wrote:
Duffy wrote:
He's going to sue the shit out of Google...

...and win big.


If it's a jury trial he may win but I think he would lose on appeal.

Why lose on appeal?


War is god
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [Crank] [ In reply to ]
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Crank wrote:
TheRef65 wrote:
Duffy wrote:
He's going to sue the shit out of Google...

...and win big.


If it's a jury trial he may win but I think he would lose on appeal.


Why lose on appeal?

He is an "at will" employee and the company believed his words hurt the company. He wasn't looking for a legal remedy for what he was saying, it was just an opinion. If he felt what was going on was illegal, he would have tried to correct the situation through the justice system. He didn't, he wrote an opinion piece. From what I've read, he didn't cite any statutes or legal precedent. Besides, they don't really need a reason to fire him other than to say he was no longer needed.

JSA and Danno are the labor lawyers, I'm sure they would know.

_____
TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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TheRef65 wrote:
I'm not sure where people get the notion you have the right to say anything at any time without reprisals.

https://www.nytimes.com/...neer-fired-memo.html


“I have a legal right to express my concerns about the terms and conditions of my working environment and to bring up potentially illegal behavior, which
is what my document does,” Mr. Damore said.

He's probably right that he has a legal right to raise his concerns. My guess, however, is that he has the right to do so within the confines of whatever grievance process is in place for his employer, not in an OpEd.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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He's already filed a charge with the NLRB. And if his claim is that his memo was concerted, protected activity, which seems to be the case, then his exclusive remedy should be through the NLRB. (No jury.)

If he's successfully, his remedy will be limited to making him whole, which includes reinstatement (unless waived) and back pay and interest, plus possible job search expenses, etc.

In other words, he might win, but it won't be big.
Last edited by: AlanShearer: Aug 8, 17 10:28
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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ThisIsIt wrote:
TheRef65 wrote:
I'm not sure where people get the notion you have the right to say anything at any time without reprisals.

https://www.nytimes.com/...neer-fired-memo.html


“I have a legal right to express my concerns about the terms and conditions of my working environment and to bring up potentially illegal behavior, which
is what my document does,” Mr. Damore said.


Sure but he seems to have a rather specific claim not the general "freedom of speech" one people often resort to.


But neither Google nor anyone else is stopping him from expressing his concerns. He's free to use whatever speech he wants. Just not as an employee of Google. Using mass email as a pulpit for airing corporate grievances is an extremely risky tactic for employment status.
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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If his memo was protected, concerted activity under the NLRA, then the fact that he didn't follow any particular grievance process will be irrelevant. An OpEd would likely be as protected as a facebook post, as it would a conversation between two employees.

That said, I haven't read his memo, so I can't say whether it could arguably be protected under the NLRA.
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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TheRef65 wrote:
Duffy wrote:
He's going to sue the shit out of Google...

...and win big.

If it's a jury trial he may win but I think he would lose on appeal.

No jury and no appeals.

It's a labor issue and Google is going to pay.

Disclaimer: the above statements are parody and meant for entertainment purposes only. No sane person would actually hold such views.
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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He is an "at will" employee and the company believed his words hurt the company. He wasn't looking for a legal remedy for what he was saying, it was just an opinion. If he felt what was going on was illegal, he would have tried to correct the situation through the justice system. He didn't, he wrote an opinion piece. From what I've read, he didn't cite any statutes or legal precedent. Besides, they don't really need a reason to fire him other than to say he was no longer needed.

None of that is really relevant.
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
It's a labor issue and Google is going to pay.

That'll be the end of Google. I don't know how they could recover from an NRLB fine (if there ends up being one).
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
TheRef65 wrote:
Duffy wrote:
He's going to sue the shit out of Google...

...and win big.


If it's a jury trial he may win but I think he would lose on appeal.


No jury and no appeals.

It's a labor issue and Google is going to pay.

No they won't. It's an NLRB charge and he has an uphill battle proving his conduct was concerted. It may be protected, but it must also be concerted to have any protection under the NLRA. Google isn't going to fork out a bunch of money to keep this hush hush. They will play it out.

If (big IF) it ever gets up to the level of the full NLRB, the Board will be stacked with Trump appointees by then. The days of the Obama Board ignoring decades of prior Board precedent are gone. Done. These lone wolf complainants will not find a friendly Board any longer.

Good luck to him.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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Does anyone here agree with what he wrote? I definitely agree that Google is left leaning and I'm sure Duffy will chime in about the womens.
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [axlsix3] [ In reply to ]
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He has a right to say what he wants. His employer has a right to dismiss him.

The Constitution is about limiting Federal power. The 1st Amendment says that the Feds aren't allowed to prevent you from saying your piece. Google isn't the Federal Government.

Yet.

"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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Its okay to be open and questioning until you are too open and question too much. His memo didn't seem too over the top nor did it seem hateful. He was careful to be clear that what he said were generalizations and there would be overlap between the sexes in what he was talking about. One of the criticisms is that he is perceived as calling women "snowflakes". Ironic that the solution is that we don't allow that talk because it might hurt feelings.

"The above should not be taken as agreement with what he guy wrote just observations on what occurred"

Life is full of froth and trouble, two things stand in stone
Kindness in another's troubles, courage in one's own
Last edited by: len: Aug 8, 17 13:11
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [axlsix3] [ In reply to ]
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Do you agree with what he wrote?
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
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A little bit of social awareness would tell you this is not a good debate for a male to enter into at work, no matter how they carefully craft their argument. I'm guessing that google hires a few men who are not terribly socially aware.

An interesting question is what evidence would be sufficient to persuade you that there is some inherent difference that explains the gender disparity in tech. Even more interesting is what data would be sufficient to persuade a woman who works in tech of the same thing.
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]
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AlanShearer wrote:
He's already filed a charge with the NLRB. And if his claim is that his memo was concerted, protected activity, which seems to be the case, then his exclusive remedy should be through the NLRB. (No jury.)

If he's successfully, his remedy will be limited to making him whole, which includes reinstatement (unless waived) and back pay and interest, plus possible job search expenses, etc.

In other words, he might win, but it won't be big.
He'll also soon learn that the software industry is like a small town where everyone knows everyone. He's going to be blackballed worse than Kapernick.
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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On the topic of the NLRB composition... Do you know where things stand regarding your anticipated stacking of the NLRB by the Trump administration? We hear that they have been slow with various appointments. Are the on the ball here, or is it still composed of Obama appointees? Or, can Trump only name new Board members when current members rotate off the Board on some timetable?

Basically, I'm interested in whether the climate in support of labor has already shifted abruptly, or whether there will be a more gradual transition.
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
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Tibbsy wrote:
Do you agree with what he wrote?


See above. Google left leaning, yes. Generalization about womens, no. And I work in tech. In the Bay Area.

ETA: I did not read through the whole 10 page manifesto.
Last edited by: axlsix3: Aug 8, 17 14:37
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [wesley] [ In reply to ]
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wesley wrote:
On the topic of the NLRB composition... Do you know where things stand regarding your anticipated stacking of the NLRB by the Trump administration? We hear that they have been slow with various appointments. Are the on the ball here, or is it still composed of Obama appointees? Or, can Trump only name new Board members when current members rotate off the Board on some timetable?

Basically, I'm interested in whether the climate in support of labor has already shifted abruptly, or whether there will be a more gradual transition.

There are 5 seats on the Board. Only 3 are occupied by 1 conservative and 2 donkeys. So, Trump does not have to wait for vacancies. He has 2 open seats he will fill with conservatives giving the Board a 3-2 conservative majority again.

The two appointees made it out of committee. Last week the Senate started the confirmation process. They should be seated by September.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [wesley] [ In reply to ]
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Kaplan was confirmed last week. Emanuel had his hearing in committee. I believe it's been sent to the full Senate, but most likely to be voted on after the recess.

Miscimerra's term expires in December, so Trump will have to nominate a replacement, as I don't believe he would want to continue.

Griffin's term as General Counsel expires in I believe September or October. That will make the biggest difference.
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for your awareness & insight on these things!
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