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60 Minutes on SS Disability

 

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JSA

Oct 6, 13 17:07

Post #1 of 60 (1960 views)
60 Minutes on SS Disability Quote | Reply

Very well done report by 60 Minutes on the fraud that is Social Security Disability. Of course, if you have been paying attention or work in this area, you have known all of this for some time. Just cannot believe anyone with a sliver of common sense cannot see what a disaster this program is and how much it reeks of fraud.

Two former employees of Binder & Binder gave a great interview with insights into the scam. Over $1B in attorney fees paid out by the SS Administration annually.

Burn it down. That is our only hope.

http://www.cbsnews.com/.../watch/?id=50156491n


If you would like to actually educate yourself on this topic, here is a great read. It is the testimony of Larry Butler, Administrative Law Judge for the SS Administration.

http://oversight.house.gov/...ment_2013_06_271.pdf

Unbelievable.
_______________________________________________

“If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went.” - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR


Alvin Tostig

Oct 6, 13 18:12

Post #2 of 60 (1883 views)
Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [JSA] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

JSA wrote:
Very well done report by 60 Minutes on the fraud that is Social Security Disability. Of course, if you have been paying attention or work in this area, you have known all of this for some time. Just cannot believe anyone with a sliver of common sense cannot see what a disaster this program is and how much it reeks of fraud.

Two former employees of Binder & Binder gave a great interview with insights into the scam. Over $1B in attorney fees paid out by the SS Administration annually.
There you go, trying to make lawyers look bad.


Some say "I can". Others say "I can't". Both manage to be correct.


tri_yoda

Oct 6, 13 18:15

Post #3 of 60 (1879 views)
Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [JSA] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

JSA wrote:
Very well done report by 60 Minutes on the fraud that is Social Security Disability. Of course, if you have been paying attention or work in this area, you have known all of this for some time. Just cannot believe anyone with a sliver of common sense cannot see what a disaster this program is and how much it reeks of fraud.

Two former employees of Binder & Binder gave a great interview with insights into the scam. Over $1B in attorney fees paid out by the SS Administration annually.

Burn it down. That is our only hope.

http://www.cbsnews.com/.../watch/?id=50156491n


If you would like to actually educate yourself on this topic, here is a great read. It is the testimony of Larry Butler, Administrative Law Judge for the SS Administration.

http://oversight.house.gov/...ment_2013_06_271.pdf

Unbelievable.

Once someone is granted "disability" there is no going back.
Seems like it would be worth the extra effort to make sure someone is really "disabled" before you put them on the gravy train for life.
Of course then the optics look bad, when you are trying to deny the "disabled" their (rightful, so they say) entitlement.

As you pointed out, people who pay attention to these things are well aware of what's going on with SS disability. Nothing is going to happen to reform it.

I mean at the end of the day, what Senator or Representative would have the guts to refuse to help (e.g. do a real evaluation and call a spade a spade when someone's "disability" just appears to be bogus) one of their constituents who claims they are being denied "disability" that they feel they should get. The denied person goes to the press and claims Senator X wouldn't help me, says my disability is not real.

Politically, if either party got behind actually trying to reform SS disability, the other party would accuse them of creating "death panels" to deny disabled people benefits. This to me is just a product of a political system with no accountability where everyone just passes the buck and wastes government money rather than standing up for what's right.


tri_yoda

Oct 6, 13 18:21

Post #4 of 60 (1864 views)
Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [JSA] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Also, no surprise seeing Tom Coburn calling a spade a spade. I believe he is in his final term. If we had a hundred more like him, we might actually have a legislature that worked.


Brownie28

Oct 6, 13 18:23

Post #5 of 60 (1861 views)
Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [tri_yoda] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

tri_yoda wrote:
Once someone is granted "disability" there is no going back.
Seems like it would be worth the extra effort to make sure someone is really "disabled" before you put them on the gravy train for life.
Of course then the optics look bad, when you are trying to deny the "disabled" their (rightful, so they say) entitlement.

As you pointed out, people who pay attention to these things are well aware of what's going on with SS disability. Nothing is going to happen to reform it.

I mean at the end of the day, what Senator or Representative would have the guts to refuse to help (e.g. do a real evaluation and call a spade a spade when someone's "disability" just appears to be bogus) one of their constituents who claims they are being denied "disability" that they feel they should get. The denied person goes to the press and claims Senator X wouldn't help me, says my disability is not real.

Politically, if either party got behind actually trying to reform SS disability, the other party would accuse them of creating "death panels" to deny disabled people benefits. This to me is just a product of a political system with no accountability where everyone just passes the buck and wastes government money rather than standing up for what's right.

And that all that matters here...nothing will be done because as you said the optics look bad, you can't be the guy stealing dough from the woman in a wheelchair, not good for reelection. But maybe if, I don't know, we required a balanced budget of some sort (even with some stipulations around war-time budgets) and some form of term limits for these jokers we wouldn't see a legitimately great program get taken advantage of in such a major way.


JSA

Oct 6, 13 18:24

Post #6 of 60 (1861 views)
Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [tri_yoda] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Well, Sen Tom Coburn (OK) is trying to reform the system. But, you are right, there is no politician, from either party, who really wants to fight this battle and/or reform this pathetic system.
_______________________________________________

“If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went.” - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR


JSA

Oct 6, 13 18:25

Post #7 of 60 (1856 views)
Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [tri_yoda] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

tri_yoda wrote:
Also, no surprise seeing Tom Coburn calling a spade a spade. I believe he is in his final term. If we had a hundred more like him, we might actually have a legislature that worked.

Yep. I believe you are correct that he is not seeking another term. The bigger issue is that we have politicians who make their time in DC a full-time career. The positions in Congress were never intended to be life-time careers.
_______________________________________________

“If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went.” - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR


JSA

Oct 6, 13 18:28

Post #8 of 60 (1849 views)
Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [Brownie28] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Watching the two women who used to work for Binder & Binder was like listening to myself from several years ago. During all 3 years of law school, I worked for a small plaintiff's boutique firm. Great experience, but, left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth. I maintain that about 1 in 10 of the clients had actually been "wronged" and deserved compensation. Listening to the women from Binder, it was about the same with the clients they used to represent.
_______________________________________________

“If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went.” - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR


burnman

Oct 6, 13 18:30

Post #9 of 60 (1844 views)
Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [JSA] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

JSA wrote:
tri_yoda wrote:
Also, no surprise seeing Tom Coburn calling a spade a spade. I believe he is in his final term. If we had a hundred more like him, we might actually have a legislature that worked.


Yep. I believe you are correct that he is not seeking another term. The bigger issue is that we have politicians who make their time in DC a full-time career. The positions in Congress were never intended to be life-time careers.

... much less personally-enriching.

-------------------------------------------------------
"What are you people; on dope?" -Mr. Hand


tri_yoda

Oct 6, 13 18:35

Post #10 of 60 (1837 views)
Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [JSA] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

There is sort of a silver lining here.

I didn't realize SS disability was on a "separate ledger" from regular SS and the "trust" will go bust in 2015 (according to the story).

Faced with either raising the payroll tax, cutting benefits by 25%, or reforming disability, there is at least the possibility of intelligent discussion.

Not that I have any respect for Grover Nordquist or what he represents, he has pull and any attempt to raise payroll taxes is going to be polarizing.
Also, considering this is the least expansive of the really big government entitlements, whatever happens with the disability Rubicon is an indication of
what will happen with the other programs.


stop2think

Oct 6, 13 20:04

Post #11 of 60 (1783 views)
Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [tri_yoda] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

tri_yoda wrote:
JSA wrote:
Very well done report by 60 Minutes on the fraud that is Social Security Disability. Of course, if you have been paying attention or work in this area, you have known all of this for some time. Just cannot believe anyone with a sliver of common sense cannot see what a disaster this program is and how much it reeks of fraud.

Two former employees of Binder & Binder gave a great interview with insights into the scam. Over $1B in attorney fees paid out by the SS Administration annually.

Burn it down. That is our only hope.

http://www.cbsnews.com/.../watch/?id=50156491n


If you would like to actually educate yourself on this topic, here is a great read. It is the testimony of Larry Butler, Administrative Law Judge for the SS Administration.

http://oversight.house.gov/...ment_2013_06_271.pdf

Unbelievable.


Once someone is granted "disability" there is no going back.
Seems like it would be worth the extra effort to make sure someone is really "disabled" before you put them on the gravy train for life.
Of course then the optics look bad, when you are trying to deny the "disabled" their (rightful, so they say) entitlement.

As you pointed out, people who pay attention to these things are well aware of what's going on with SS disability. Nothing is going to happen to reform it.

I mean at the end of the day, what Senator or Representative would have the guts to refuse to help (e.g. do a real evaluation and call a spade a spade when someone's "disability" just appears to be bogus) one of their constituents who claims they are being denied "disability" that they feel they should get. The denied person goes to the press and claims Senator X wouldn't help me, says my disability is not real.

My fiancee is in upper management for a very large non-profit organization which helps "disabled" people find employment. All of their clients receive disability. While some of them have actual disabilities which make it difficult for them to have a normal career (ie. blindness, severe intellectual shortcomings), the vast majority of them are nothing more than leeches on the system. She told me a story today about a young girl in their program who was riding on the back of a motorcycle that was involved in a minor fender bender a few years ago. Nobody was hurt in the accident, including herself or the rider, and the bike was not even damaged but she claims to have PTSD from the accident and receives the maximum state disability because of it.

The people in the program who really want to work tend to be the ones with actual severe disabilities.


spot

Oct 7, 13 5:09

Post #12 of 60 (1692 views)
Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [JSA] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I would bet that if one looked hard enough, you could probably find the same thing about VA disability. When I was at my transition class when I was nearing retirement, the room was filled with a bunch of very healthy looking people. Of course, when the guy from the VA came to tell us about how to submit paperwork for service related injuries and a disability rating, they were all over it. It is insane what gets covered; I kid you not, I know somebody who has an itchy scalp and gets something like a 10% disability for it.

Spot
_______________________________________________
"You got hair on your peaches, or what?" ....Reese Bobby


Allie

Oct 7, 13 5:23

Post #13 of 60 (1681 views)
Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [spot] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

It is rampant. We get so many people coming in wanting me to certify their medical papers. I cannot by law do that, so I am saved from that; however, it is still infuriating because pain is subjective and you can't really say "oh please, you don't hurt that badly" but then you see them out and about and just cringe.

The mindset of the person that is actively seeking disability for conditions that most will brush off as a nuisance is alive and well and it causes me to become so cynical about things, then I meet that 1 person who is literally living on beans that is forced to take the money because they truly need it and is so ashamed because they weren't brought up to take the handout. I want to take them on a tour to talk to others. My closest childhood friend is in that boat now. She is a teacher, loves what she does, however, her MS is catching up with her and she can no longer stand for long periods of time (she teaches band) and her legs are staging a revolt. The immunosuppressants she is on are kicking her butt and I think she is about to go down that road.

I dunno. What people didn't mention in the 60 Minutes piece is the upsurge of parents demanding an ADD/ADHD or even Bipolar diagnosis for their child. Once they get that, the child is now covered under ADA and they get payment.


bluemonkeytri

Oct 7, 13 6:43

Post #14 of 60 (1622 views)
Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [JSA] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

JSA wrote:
Well, Sen Tom Coburn (OK) is trying to reform the system. But, you are right, there is no politician, from either party, who really wants to fight this battle and/or reform this pathetic system.

If the respective Bar associations and the Justice Dept start going after the Christopher Conn's of the world, it would be a good start.


ScottyBoy

Oct 7, 13 7:48

Post #15 of 60 (1571 views)
Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [JSA] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Yup, I almost posted about this last night right after it aired. Never realized how bad it was, and the lawyers have (according to the former employees) turned it into a near 100% success rate where it is almost a manufacturing process for making money. Even the doctors are getting kickbacks for supporting the lawyers claims.

Sen. Tom Coburn did an excellent job explaining the issue and I really hope they put together a report that successfully outlines the entire issue as well as potential solutions.

And as someone already stated in this thread, it really sucks that the people who actually use SS disability for the right reasons may be negatively affected by the 50-60% of recipients who are draining the system.


planetsbr

Oct 7, 13 7:59

Post #16 of 60 (1556 views)
Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [JSA] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

JSA wrote:
tri_yoda wrote:
Also, no surprise seeing Tom Coburn calling a spade a spade. I believe he is in his final term. If we had a hundred more like him, we might actually have a legislature that worked.


Yep. I believe you are correct that he is not seeking another term. The bigger issue is that we have politicians who make their time in DC a full-time career. The positions in Congress were never intended to be life-time careers.

Yes ... a single 5 year term, do what you promised then get out.
Maybe not perfect but beats what we have now, which is not about doing the right thing but staying in power.
Unfortunately when you say "politician", I think "slimy", with very very few exceptions.
.
.
==============================================
Dems and Pubs both want to spend your money... just on different things


trimick

Oct 7, 13 8:29

Post #17 of 60 (1538 views)
Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [planetsbr] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

planetsbr wrote:
JSA wrote:
tri_yoda wrote:
Also, no surprise seeing Tom Coburn calling a spade a spade. I believe he is in his final term. If we had a hundred more like him, we might actually have a legislature that worked.


Yep. I believe you are correct that he is not seeking another term. The bigger issue is that we have politicians who make their time in DC a full-time career. The positions in Congress were never intended to be life-time careers.


Yes ... a single 5 year term, do what you promised then get out.
Maybe not perfect but beats what we have now, which is not about doing the right thing but staying in power.
Unfortunately when you say "politician", I think "slimy", with very very few exceptions.
.
.

But we would lose all the valuable experience that these career politicians bring to the table.

pink font


lunchbox

Oct 7, 13 8:40

Post #18 of 60 (1528 views)
Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [JSA] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Workman's compensation and disability are seen as the great gravy train. I was a manager in a distribution center years ago, and people loved "getting hurt". It really screwed it up for the folks who really did get hurt and had a legitimate injury. The company's incident review policy was onerous, and had quite the adversarial feel.

I work as a medical provider in occupational health now, and see a good number of folks who just aren't motivated to get better. In a way I can't blame them- 50 years old and working in a warehouse or meat packing plant has to just suck. When its time to get back to work though, you gotta go.
******************************
If I don't, who will? -Me
It's like being bipolar in opinion is a requirement around here. -TripleThreat


ThisIsIt

Oct 7, 13 8:56

Post #19 of 60 (1515 views)
Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [lunchbox] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

lunchbox wrote:
Workman's compensation and disability are seen as the great gravy train. I was a manager in a distribution center years ago, and people loved "getting hurt". It really screwed it up for the folks who really did get hurt and had a legitimate injury. The company's incident review policy was onerous, and had quite the adversarial feel.

I work as a medical provider in occupational health now, and see a good number of folks who just aren't motivated to get better. In a way I can't blame them- 50 years old and working in a warehouse or meat packing plant has to just suck. When its time to get back to work though, you gotta go.

Being in the physical therapy world we deal with this stuff all the time. I've seen patients that were shockingly honest about essentially gaming the system (usually in relation to some other claim they had going or their relative's issues).

Still it begs a couple of questions. How prevalent on the whole is this and what % of folks on SS disability are potential malingerers?


getcereal

Oct 7, 13 9:08

Post #20 of 60 (1498 views)
Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [JSA] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

"Marilyn Zahm: If the American public knew what was going on in our system, half would be outraged and the other half would apply for benefits."

Sadly our country and it's culture is changing at break neck speed.
We once thought- "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness" was good enough.
Now those rights are expanding with the help of a corrupt government to be more like: life, less liberty, redistribution of wealth for the pursuit to live on the dole.
So pathetic we had such a great run.


dhyoung9

Oct 7, 13 9:17

Post #21 of 60 (1479 views)
Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [ThisIsIt] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

ThisIsIt wrote:
lunchbox wrote:
Workman's compensation and disability are seen as the great gravy train. I was a manager in a distribution center years ago, and people loved "getting hurt". It really screwed it up for the folks who really did get hurt and had a legitimate injury. The company's incident review policy was onerous, and had quite the adversarial feel.

I work as a medical provider in occupational health now, and see a good number of folks who just aren't motivated to get better. In a way I can't blame them- 50 years old and working in a warehouse or meat packing plant has to just suck. When its time to get back to work though, you gotta go.


Being in the physical therapy world we deal with this stuff all the time. I've seen patients that were shockingly honest about essentially gaming the system (usually in relation to some other claim they had going or their relative's issues).

Still it begs a couple of questions. How prevalent on the whole is this and what % of folks on SS disability are potential malingerers?

More than half are malingerers and fakes. Im in physical therapy profession also. It never fails, two people with the same injury, one with workers comp temporary income benefits takes 2 to 3 times as long to recover than someone with insurance and a job.Then when the income benefits run out, here comes a lawyer request for medical records and a disability claim. Ive almost quit taking workers comp because of the fraud. The SSi and SSDI are just the next final step for people that have done the worker comp racquet followed by the unemployment racquet. We as a nation have tried to do the right thing, cover on the job injuries for injured workers, provide income assistance for people that lose their jobs while they can search for a new one, and help all those that cant work for themselves.

But there are no personal morals anymore. 20 or 30 years ago, 9 out of 10 people would have thought it was immoral to take money from these programs and would have been completely embarassed and humiliated to mention it to anyone. Now, 9 out of 10 are hiring lawyers trying to figure out how to qualify, and don't care who knows or doesn't. It is a disgusting decay or personal morals and pride to live off of the work others, but since they see it as the governments its no one's money and they arent hurting anybody and they dont care.


---------------------------------
Hold my Beer and watch this!


eddiep

Oct 7, 13 10:16

Post #22 of 60 (1447 views)
Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [JSA] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Agree with Allie:

The secondary fraud is getting your child diagnosed with a "mental disability" and getting paid for that. ADD/ADHD are the classics. But it's so easy for the parents to go to the doc and report subjective symptoms and score the diagnosis.

Another point they didn't make on the show. A LOT of the fraudulently disabled actually have cash-paying under the table jobs - gardener, housecleaner etc. So they actually make much more money, and just don't report it or pay taxes on their income.


MJuric

Oct 7, 13 10:20

Post #23 of 60 (1442 views)
Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [ThisIsIt] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Still it begs a couple of questions. How prevalent on the whole is this and what % of folks on SS disability are potential malingerers?

I think it's very difficult to know how many are on disability under false pretense and to what extent. That being said we can, without question, say that jobs today are typically less physically demanding, less dangerous and thus less prone to injury then in the past. One would think that due to this the percentage of population on disability should be going down, in fact quite the opposite.

In 1985 only 2.2% of adults ages 25-65 were on SSDI. Today that number is closer to 9%.


IOW we have easier jobs, less prone to injury and the percent of people on disability has increased four fold in just under 30 years.

You can only walk away from that with a couple possible conclusions. Either people in 1985 were a hell of a lot more sturdy and less frail then we are today or there are a hell of a lot more people on disability today that never would have been for similar "Ailments" in 1985. I'm going with the later.

If we assume that 1985 was somewhat of a benchmark in the sense of people taking disability when they truly needed it, then we are likely to have the same amount, probably less due to easier conditions, that truly need it today. Assuming that it means that 3 out of 4 on disability today are gaming the system to some extent compared to the population in 1985.

From what I've seen I don't think this is far from the truth.

~Matt




schroeder

Oct 7, 13 10:36

Post #24 of 60 (1419 views)
Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [JSA] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

This American Life also had an episode about disability. It's kind of sickening. Covers a county in Alabama where 1/4 of the working age people are on disability.

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/...trends-with-benefits


lunchbox

Oct 7, 13 10:53

Post #25 of 60 (1393 views)
Re: 60 Minutes on SS Disability [dhyoung9] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

We're contracted with a lot of different companies as the clinic to come to for all of their injuries, but people can choose where to go under the laws. We often get folks who see their own provider sent to us for a second opinion. A lot of the time its valid- overuse injuries do take time to improve, and there are guidelines for post-surgical cases before a return to work is a good idea. There are also some very shady clinics- time off and vicodin for everyone! In house physical therapy 3 times per week until the insurance quits paying. Those piss me off- they rolled over on their objective decision making and are just lining up at the trough.


dhyoung9 wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
lunchbox wrote:
Workman's compensation and disability are seen as the great gravy train. I was a manager in a distribution center years ago, and people loved "getting hurt". It really screwed it up for the folks who really did get hurt and had a legitimate injury. The company's incident review policy was onerous, and had quite the adversarial feel.

I work as a medical provider in occupational health now, and see a good number of folks who just aren't motivated to get better. In a way I can't blame them- 50 years old and working in a warehouse or meat packing plant has to just suck. When its time to get back to work though, you gotta go.


Being in the physical therapy world we deal with this stuff all the time. I've seen patients that were shockingly honest about essentially gaming the system (usually in relation to some other claim they had going or their relative's issues).

Still it begs a couple of questions. How prevalent on the whole is this and what % of folks on SS disability are potential malingerers?


More than half are malingerers and fakes. Im in physical therapy profession also. It never fails, two people with the same injury, one with workers comp temporary income benefits takes 2 to 3 times as long to recover than someone with insurance and a job.Then when the income benefits run out, here comes a lawyer request for medical records and a disability claim. Ive almost quit taking workers comp because of the fraud. The SSi and SSDI are just the next final step for people that have done the worker comp racquet followed by the unemployment racquet. We as a nation have tried to do the right thing, cover on the job injuries for injured workers, provide income assistance for people that lose their jobs while they can search for a new one, and help all those that cant work for themselves.

But there are no personal morals anymore. 20 or 30 years ago, 9 out of 10 people would have thought it was immoral to take money from these programs and would have been completely embarassed and humiliated to mention it to anyone. Now, 9 out of 10 are hiring lawyers trying to figure out how to qualify, and don't care who knows or doesn't. It is a disgusting decay or personal morals and pride to live off of the work others, but since they see it as the governments its no one's money and they arent hurting anybody and they dont care.
******************************
If I don't, who will? -Me
It's like being bipolar in opinion is a requirement around here. -TripleThreat

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