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3D Printing and the End of Gun Control

big kahuna

Jul 29, 12 16:27

Post #1 of 21 (1264 views)

3D Printing and the End of Gun Control	Quote \| Reply

Not a headline I thought of on my own but it states perfectly what 3D printing (via "additive manufacturing," something I've been fascinated with for a few years) is now capable of, and on 3D printers that sell for as little as $300 or so and which really can print out something like an actual working handgun or rifle. From Forbes (http://www.forbes.com/...-end-of-gun-control/) :

So, can you print a gun? Yep, you can and that’s exactly what somebody with the alias “HaveBlue” did.

To be accurate, HaveBlue didn’t print an entire gun, he printed a “receiver” for an AR-15 (better known as the military’s M16) at a cost of about $30 worth of materials.

The receiver is, in effect, the framework of a gun and holds the barrel and all of the other parts in place. It’s also the part of the gun that is technically, according to US law, the actual gun and carries the serial number.

When the weapon was assembled with the printed receiver HaveBlue reported he fired 200 rounds and it operated perfectly.

If you want a short (less than 15 minutes) primer on what 3D printing is now capable of, and what the future holds for it and additive manufacturing, hit the TED link below and listen to Lisa Harouni of Digital Forming tell you what's coming:

http://www.ted.com/..._on_3d_printing.html

aftereffector

Jul 29, 12 17:03

Post #2 of 21 (1242 views)

Re: 3D Printing and the End of Gun Control [big kahuna] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Next up, somebody named SeniorTrend will make a Barrett using the same process. Right?

big kahuna

Jul 29, 12 17:10

Post #3 of 21 (1229 views)

Re: 3D Printing and the End of Gun Control [aftereffector] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

aftereffector wrote:

Next up, somebody named SeniorTrend will make a Barrett using the same process. Right?

I don't know about all that, but I do know it's getting easier than ever to use a 3D printer to make most anything, right down to widgets that can fit on the head of ballpoint pen. What are the limitations, really, to layering up most any sort of handgun or rifle with a 3D printer? Maybe when it comes to inner springs and such but I think that with commonly available CAD programs you can make such parts separately and then add them to the overall package.

iO4

Jul 29, 12 17:20

Post #4 of 21 (1222 views)

Re: 3D Printing and the End of Gun Control [big kahuna] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

I saw that story today as well.

I was at a bbq last weekend with a friend who is extremely anti gun. She was talking about how we need to get rid of guns and I explained to her that many many people would have the skills to make a very accurate gun with the most basic machine shop in any basement and because of that there is really no way to get rid of them. Then she said well how about gun powder, what's in it? What if they ban that? I said well, it was invented a couple thousand years ago. It's a common nitrate, charcoal and sulfur all easy to get. It's just not feasible that the technology could be regulated away... after that the conversation went on to unrelated other topics.
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Don't hold back

big kahuna

Jul 29, 12 18:36

Post #5 of 21 (1185 views)

Re: 3D Printing and the End of Gun Control [jO4] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

jO4 wrote:

Yeah, the genie's escaped from that bottle a long time ago. I'm all for enforcement of the laws and the speedy application of such enforcement. I think we can do much better on that end than on trying to catch some will 'o the wisp that's never going to be caught and stoppered back up.

3D printing and the whole additive manufacturing thing intrigues me. When I first learned of it the first thought that popped into my head was "I wonder if you'd be able to make a jet engine?" The second one had something to do with various dirty thoughts (hahahahaha!) and the third one was how I'd love to make myself an HK MP5SD. ;-)

trail

Jul 30, 12 7:12

Post #6 of 21 (1093 views)

Re: 3D Printing and the End of Gun Control [big kahuna] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

>which really can print out something like an actual working handgun or rifle

Bull.

You need a lathe and a barrel driller to make any sort of decent gun. They're just talking about make the plastic bits that hold the actual pressure vessels together. You can hand-carve that crap, if you want.

big kahuna

Jul 30, 12 7:26

Post #7 of 21 (1081 views)

Re: 3D Printing and the End of Gun Control [trail] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

trail wrote:

I dunno. I went to a demonstration on 3D printing recently, and the pressure vessels you're talking about are right around the corner, so to speak, when it comes to additive manufacturing. There are no technological limitations that I can see, other than materials manipulation issues, but who says the pressure vessels have to be made of traditional metals?

MJuric

Jul 30, 12 7:55

Post #8 of 21 (1069 views)

Re: 3D Printing and the End of Gun Control [big kahuna] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

What are the limitations, really, to layering up most any sort of handgun or rifle with a 3D printer? Maybe when it comes to inner springs and such but I think that with commonly available CAD programs you can make such parts separately and then add them to the overall package.

The limitations are materials and thus quality viability of the product. Even if you could extend the ability of a 3D printer to include castings, which with secondary operations they already have, these printed materials would be FAR inferior to the typical materials that come from a billet. Furthermore things like springs etc are highly dependent on grain structure of the material. Furthermore secondary operations, heat treat, grinding etc will still be necessary to get a quality, longer term usable product...for the time being.

So while you might be able to pick up a spring for a gun from Mcmaster Carr or your local hardware store you're not going to make it on a 3D printer and just use it, to my knowledge, yet. Also the product made will not be a true "Production" model in any sense of the word. My guess is that even though the product may "Work" it will not last and will not work as well due to material, fit etc issues. But of course if you're a nut job you don't need it to last or work all that well do you?

All of that being said I think this is a moot point. We've been making guns for centuries. Who do you think makes them and out of what? Yes, they are made by schlubs like me that can order everything I need to make a gun from any number of vendors. Do you think it would raise any eyebrows if I ordered a piece of 7075 AL? Nope I do it all the time as do literally hundreds of people across this nation. I could turn that piece into a receiver as good as or better than anything on the market in a matter of hours. I have literally hundreds of different material coatings available to me that I could get done and no one would notice. I could make every part of that gun and in any configuration I wanted.

I'm not special and I'd bet I'm one of 10's if not 100's of thousands of people in this country that could do the same. In fact I bet there are any number of "Gun enthusiast" out there making and or paying someone to make guns for them already. I actually know someone with almost no machining experience that bought a cheap ass bench mill and did this himself. I've thought about doing it myself...but I already have WAY to many such projects going on already and I'm really not much of a gun enthusiast.

"Gun control" is as ridiculous a premise as would be "Diesel fuel and fertilizer controls". There is next to zero correlation between guns and murders and if anyone, especially a nut jobs with way more time and drive than that of the people trying to stop him, wants to get a gun they will...even if they have to make it themselves or pay someone to do it for them.

The only thing gun control accomplishes is causing a nut job to move from one weapon of mass destruction to another. Call me crazy, but I'd kind of prefer a gun to a bomb or biological weapon. If it's easier to make a bomb than it is to get a gun, well then, nut jobs are still going to kill a whole bunch of people, just not with as many guns.

~Matt

~Matt

iO4

Jul 30, 12 8:06

Post #9 of 21 (1064 views)

Re: 3D Printing and the End of Gun Control [MJuric] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Regarding the batman guy I was thinking the same thing. Given the way he rigged his apt I wonder what his approach would have been without the gun...seems likely it could have been a lot worse outcome.
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Don't hold back

Eppur si muove

Jul 30, 12 8:11

Post #10 of 21 (1060 views)

Re: 3D Printing and the End of Gun Control [jO4] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

jO4 wrote:

I was at a bbq last weekend with a friend who is extremely anti gun. She was talking about how we need to get rid of guns and I explained to her that many many people would have the skills to make a very accurate gun with the most basic machine shop in any basement and because of that there is really no way to get rid of them. Then she said well how about gun powder, what's in it? What if they ban that? I said well, it was invented a couple thousand years ago. It's a common nitrate, charcoal and sulfur all easy to get. It's just not feasible that the technology could be regulated away... after that the conversation went on to unrelated other topics.

The funny thing is that if hypothetically you could regulate away gunpowder, castles would become defensible again, the sword would become the new weapon of choice, and we'd all return to feudalism. All hail S. M. Stirling! ;)

MJuric

Jul 30, 12 8:11

Post #11 of 21 (1057 views)

Re: 3D Printing and the End of Gun Control [trail] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Bull.

Nope, not bull at all. 3D printing is at a point that they can produce products printed at the micron level layers and accuracy. Adding rifling to a barrel would be easy. In fact you can "Print" an entire working gun fairly easily these days with moveable parts and all that short of a few springs I suspect you could even fire.

My only concern would be material strength of the chamber and barrel.

That being said they aren't going to work very long due to the same issue. At the moment these printers are meant as "Prototype" creating units. To see how things work and fit etc. The materials are relatively limited and coatings, treatments etc are non existent.

~Matt

MJuric

Jul 30, 12 8:19

Post #12 of 21 (1051 views)

Re: 3D Printing and the End of Gun Control [jO4] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

seems likely it could have been a lot worse outcome.

Yep, exactly. Bombs, biological, chemical. I'd prefer a single target shooting a gun rather than a single target that could be remotely detonating any of these devices and multiples of them anywhere from anywhere. What would be worse, a single guy shooting at people in a theater from a relatively known location, or a single guy sitting at a remote location detonating bombs at theatres across the country?

I'm not saying that would happen, but of a complete nut job finds getting a gun so hard that he has to hire someone to make it for him he might start looking for alternatives. Rational people will make the argument that the person would just give up, I think that attempting to apply rational behavior to a irrational individual. Stopping that individual from getting a gun could just as easily make them more angry and irrational forcing them to "Ratchet up" the effort.

The real solution is not "Gun control" but simply learning to spot and help people are showing signs of irrational behavior or are clearly suffering emotionally.

~Matt

big kahuna

Jul 30, 12 8:32

Post #13 of 21 (1036 views)

Re: 3D Printing and the End of Gun Control [jO4] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

jO4 wrote:

The guy was smart (brilliant?) enough to have pulled an Aum Shinrikyo-like gas attack of some sort if he'd had the patience. I don't think he could've made sarin or VX but simple household chemicals could've made a nice mustard gas or some sort of chlorine gas bomb or the like. Phosgene, any number of other halogenated hyrdrocarbons...you name it. Barring that, he could have just tried to torch the place with simple jellied gasoline or -- at very base -- some sort of Molotov cocktail firebombs or nail and shrapnel bombs etc. Using a gun was the easiest and simplest way to go but with just minimal effort he could've upped the kill ratio and effectiveness of his attack quite easily. During my homeland security studies for that master's I got in it I read and saw materials about how amazingly easy all of the above is to pull off. And, unfortunately, it's just a matter of time until somebody tries it yet again.

trail

Jul 30, 12 8:36

Post #14 of 21 (1033 views)

Re: 3D Printing and the End of Gun Control [MJuric] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

>Nope, not bull at all. 3D printing is at a point that they can produce products printed at the micron level layers and accuracy.

You're speaking to someone who's sitting about 10 feet away from several million dollars of "3D printers," 3D mills, water jets, and laser metal sintering printers. You can absolutely not make a gun barrel with any of those. You just can't.

>My only concern would be material strength of the chamber and barrel.

That's not a "concern". It's a show-stopper. Laser metal sintering is the type of "3D printing" that comes closest to producing a viable pressure vessel, but you could do it better than a WWI lathe and drill.

trail

Jul 30, 12 8:42

Post #15 of 21 (1024 views)

Re: 3D Printing and the End of Gun Control [big kahuna] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

> and the pressure vessels you're talking about are right around the corner, so to speak, when it comes to additive manufacturing. T

Yes, in my response to MJuric below, I brought up laser metal sintering, which *can* "print" very strong metals. But they're still *very* expensive equipment. By contrast for a few thousands you can buy a second-hand lathe, drill, some molds for casting tricky parts, and you're good to go. WW-I technology still wins for cost and quality. I think we're a decade or so away from being able to cost-effectively print guns. I agree it'll happen.

I just disagree with your argument that it ends gun control. You can *already* make your own gun for cheap, if you really want to. My dad made several. I'm afraid to shoot any of them, but I imagine they might work.

Rambler

Jul 30, 12 8:52

Post #16 of 21 (1021 views)

Re: 3D Printing and the End of Gun Control [big kahuna] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Damn. I was thinking that I had just sourced my new aero wheels until I saw the bit about size limitations. I don't need skate wheels.

MJuric

Jul 30, 12 9:03

Post #17 of 21 (1007 views)

Re: 3D Printing and the End of Gun Control [trail] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

You can absolutely not make a gun barrel with any of those. You just can't.

Why? When you have a 3D printer that is capable of Micron layers and accuracy you can most definitely print a barrel. Whether or not that barrel is "Functional" or not is a matter of function of the material. Now I would agree that not being able to make one that is usable or not I don't know. In fact I would question it, but apparently people have made the receivers already and even most of the gun, possibly already the barrels although I've not specifically seen that mentioned.

The fact that YOUR 3D printers can not does not mean none can. In fact this is being brought up because people are just now doing this, or attempting to do it, on the latest versions. 10 years ago you couldn't make 90% of what is "Common" these days with 3D printers.

Laser metal sintering is the type of "3D printing" that comes closest to producing a viable pressure vessel, but you could do it better than a WWI lathe and drill.

Don't disagree at all which is the point I brought up to BK. Able to or not with a 3D printer is a moot point. Anyone with a bit of machining background and some old used WWII, even earlier, vintage machines can make a gun from off the shelf stock. There are literally 10's if not 100's of thousands of people with such capabilities and far better in the US right now. Making a gun is not rocket science...hell it's not even really all that difficult general machining.

A few fixtures, some CNC equipment and a proven design and drawings can have a person making guns by the but load in short order. All of this is readily available to anyone and without raising an eyebrow as theirs nothing in a gun that is not extremely common material and nothing in the process that is not a common process.

~Matt

trail

Jul 30, 12 13:43

Post #18 of 21 (956 views)

Re: 3D Printing and the End of Gun Control [MJuric] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

>Why? When you have a 3D printer that is capable of Micron layers and accuracy you can most definitely print a barrel.

Material properties. Your material has to be able to contain huge pressures and huge temperatures. The low-cost (<$50K) 3D printers use a thermoplastic deposition process (ABS polymers and similar). The "thermo" in thermoplastic is a good indication that it might not be the best material to handle modern gunpowder. The sintering 3D printers (much more expensive) could do much better, but they're still nowhere near the chro-moly steel used in almost all guns.

Also heat dissipation. Steel is a fantastic conductor of heat (touch a gun barrel after you've gone through a few) Plastics aren't. Even if it could handle the pressure/heat of a single round, you've have something approaching fusion-grade internal temperatures after just a few rounds.

For my military application we use rapid-prototyped ABS parts all the time, and they break constantly in much, much less strenuous application. . And we use the best polymers available. Even for plastics you to go to a casting process to get anything viable in the real world.

I will correct my statement, though. I bet you could use our 3D CNC to make a pretty decent short-barrel handgun. But a 3D CNC is uber-expensive.

(This post was edited by trail on Jul 30, 12 13:47)

MJuric

Jul 30, 12 14:16

Post #19 of 21 (942 views)

Re: 3D Printing and the End of Gun Control [trail] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Material properties.

Yes I stated that earlier so if that is your only reason for not being able to make one then we agree. You could make a barrel very accurately and one that would work. I'm not sure whether there is any material out there that could withstand the temps and most certainly no where near as well as material they are typically made out of.

I will correct my statement, though. I bet you could use our 3D CNC to make a pretty decent short-barrel handgun. But a 3D CNC is uber-expensive.

Not sure I follow this. Are you talking 3 axis CNC's or 3D printers? If you're not talking 3D printing someone making a gun wouldn't need to have a CNC anything, just some plain old lathes and mills and bit of know how. If they wanted to start production lines they could pick up some CNC equipment pretty cheap these days...considering half the manufacturing base in the US is currently up for auction :-)

I could go out tomorrow and pick up a used CNC VMC and CNC turning center for probably under 30-40K combined with a good deal at an auction. That with a few other machines, cheap surface grinder etc etc and I could probably start mass producing guns with very little machining experience.

I could pretty easily make just about any gun that has ever been made with the equipment we have.

I know a guy that made his own receiver and built most of his gun with a cheap bench mill...if you have enough time you could probably do it with a box full of files, hell prisoners have been known to make them in prison.

~Matt

iO4

Jul 30, 12 14:48

Post #20 of 21 (934 views)

Re: 3D Printing and the End of Gun Control [trail] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

It will be interesting to see where the technology is in 5-10 years.
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Don't hold back

trail

Jul 30, 12 16:20

Post #21 of 21 (908 views)

Re: 3D Printing and the End of Gun Control [MJuric] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

>Not sure I follow this. Are you talking 3 axis CNC's or 3D printers?

Mostly "printers" (I don't like that term), but I had said that none of the stuff in my shop could produce a gun, and I corrected myself because I had mentioned CNC, which could pull most of it off.

>I could go out tomorrow and pick up a used CNC VMC and CNC turning center for probably under 30-40K combined with a good deal at an auction. That with a few other machines, cheap surface grinder etc etc and I could probably start mass >producing guns with very little machining experience.

I agree there, except about the experience part. Producing barrel rifling, etc, isn't easy to do, and there a few other specialized skills involve in making a decent gun. (my dad's shop, when I cleaned it out, had about 100 rifle barrel attempts, of which I think he got 3-4 viable barrels).