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TRI FIT HELP
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Hi everyone

I originally posted this in the main forum - got a lot of views and no responses. Now as a newbie i noticed this section and noted its only for people in the biz and not necessarily 'customers' so i apologize if i am being naughty here and posting...i will understand if this needs to be deleted.

I recently sold my 56CM Fuji D6... it was too small. I loved the bike but when i realised i was faster on my road bike on a time trial i knew something was off. Also it just didnt feel right. The seat was as high as it could go and there were plenty of spacers on the the head tube to raise the cockpit... beginners mistake by having a shop (that has since closed) rail road you into buying the size they had in stock already...

Before selling i went and had a GeoFit to at least see if it could be improved. The fit changed it a lot but I was still faster on my larger road bike. I have since sold it... Now looking to buy another bike but unsure of what to go for. Fit will be key but the shops i want to buy from dont have my sizes in stock so I will be buying blind. It also seems the the shops dont want to advise on what size exactly until i commit to buying... "we'll check with our rep based upon these fit numbers we have for you"

So I am 6ft 3. The bike in the photos below is a FUJI D6 56CM with 175MM cranks and 100MM stem. As you can see i am truely maxed out here. The frame stack and reach is 525 and 425. The reach to center pad post fit is 550. No idea what the stack is. Based upon this info anyone care to make a suggestion on what number i should really be looking at? Its also worth noting even on this post fit in the aero position my neck was really struggling to allow me to look straight ahead and on longer rides it wuld get fairly stiff.

Bikes i am interested in are Blue Triad SL, Shiv, P5, SC but before deciding on that I want to figure out my size requirements.

All thoughts and comments greatly appreciated.

thanks



- Post Fit Photo


- Post Fit Photo


- Fit Data
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Re: TRI FIT HELP [Alex060184] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for posting your questions; it seems you are up against a philosophy of "your numbers are mine" rather than "your numbers are your numbers". That is to say that you paid good money for a fitting, but got no hard data out of it. Go back to that fitter, tell him/her that you need to know what frame size fits you best.

You should have received a document that summarized your fit. Details include physical measurement, postural analysis, flexion, injury history etc. It would also include a before/after of the bike setup, similar to the information you posted.

The critical part that you are missing is your frame Stack and Reach - not your pad placement. This fitter should have been honest with you - 'dang that frame is too damn small', and consulted with you as to what you need for a new bike. This information also goes on your file; I've certainly worked with riders who, despite have a frame too small/too big, refuse to get a bike more appropriate. I will make a notation "this bike is too big/too small"; there is no argument later if the rider complains that my fit didn't 'solve' their problems.

Perhaps this fitter doesn't sell bikes, that's ok. It's his job to fit you, and recommend what is best for you if he/she doesn't sell it. You can then turn to any shop and say "I need an Xcm frame from Brand Y".

Unfortunately, some fitters or shops believe that 'the numbers' are some sort of secret sauce, and require $$ or fealty to them, and will not give you your numbers. This is fear, and lack of respect for the rider. Your numbers are your numbers (and, you paid for them)

Stack and Reach is brand neutral. You will not be buying blind if you know your S/R needs.

Anne Barnes
ABBikefit, Ltd
FIST/SICI/FIST DOWN DEEP
X/Y Coordinator
abbikefit@gmail.com
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Re: TRI FIT HELP [ABarnes] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for reading and providing some feedback. Below is the additional info from the fit. I didnt want to 'name' the lbs because i didnt want to appear to be complaining etc and a friend of mine works there as a mech. As you can see the fit dosnt provide numbers. It gives me a reach to pad center but who knows that may need to be further out in reality, it also dosnt allow me to calculate or show pad stack which is equally frustrating. When talking to them about the prospect of buying a Shiv they were unsure if i would fit a L or XL best, after buying they were going to give this fit to the Specialized rep and talk it through with them which frame size i should get..... very frustrating. Guess my $150 was paid to make my bike fit better and not to provide me with the S & R numbers i really need....








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Re: TRI FIT HELP [Alex060184] [ In reply to ]
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It looks like they fitted you to the bike you had, despite it being clearly too small, rather than seeking your ideal.
I can work out pad x,y fairly closely from the numbers given (380,680) but unfortunately I think your best move before committing a few $k to a new bike would be to find an impartial fitter with a fit bike (even if you have to travel), rather than someone who pushes your saddle way back beyond typical tri optimum and then refuses to give you the info you've paid for.

I'd also suggest that you consider not going for a fully integrated bike. Something like the P5 is a pain to adjust so if you are taking a continuous improvement approach to position it will be a nuisance. A P3 (or the like) would allow you to alter your position in future more easily. In general if I have someone come to me with history like yours (uncomfortable, bad position) we have to go for a sensible (slightly conservative) position to start with to allow them to adapt to a new riding style, but with a plan for changes that can be made once the rider has learned to relax into the bars properly. Then we go to full noise superbikes once the position is fairly settled.

I don't like to play the "my bike is like this therefore yours should be..." game. But as an indication my saddle height is a few mm more than yours but pad x,y 450,600. Partly because I'm sitting further forward and partly more practice in the aero position (and I may have longer torso). As it is the position you've been put in restricts you to few other options besides the Shiv, which is peculiarly convenient.
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Re: TRI FIT HELP [Alex060184] [ In reply to ]
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Alex, I am in a similar position as you are. I'm looking to buy a new tri bike and I'm searching for a well fitting bike. Some background info, Im 6'1" 195 lbs. 35 in inseam. I also have some neck mobility issues.I purchased a Cannondale Slice 56cm bike approx 3 yr ago. It always seemed a little small even though that's what the bike shop said I needed. I eventually added an adjustable stem and set it as high as possible. That helped (but didnt fix) the neck issue. I always had a stiff neck after a ride that was more than 45 minutes. It also seemed short on the front end. I just went thru some awful neck nerve issues and my orthopedic dr (also a tri guy) couldn't believe I was riding a 56cm bike. He strongly suggested a bike fit with the guru fit system. So I did. With my new fit numbers I'm looking for a tri bike. In order to relive the neck issues I have a very tall front end. Way more than most tri bikes have available. I like and enjoy riding on the aerobars more than riding in a road position. Especially on rides over an hour. So I would like to find a tri bike that will accommodate the high front end. Its not as aero and sexy as the low long set ups but if I can stay on my bars for the entire race I believe I benefit. So I'm looking at Felt B12/14 model size 61cm. Way bigger than my Cdale. But with a change in the stem and the tall shims for the aerobar I can get my fit numbers. It is the only bike model I can find to work. I have Frankenstiened my road bike to a stack number pretty close to what i want. All of my neck issues have gone away. As a point of reference I'm looking for a stack of 770 mm and a reach of 530 mm.measured from the bottom bracket to the elbow pads. I am not a fitter or a bike guru. I will caution you about bike shops and their understanding of stack and reach numbers. I have been to 3 shops that sell road and tri performance bikes. None of them were familiar with the stack and reach numbers. Read alot in this forum It is a wealth of information. Ask questions. These ST guys know alot. Get a bike fit done from a fit machine and not your bike. The shop that did my fit also sold me a bike. 4 weeks later I returned the bike because it wasn't even close to my fit numbers. So how in the heck does that happen? When you shell out $4K for a bike after a guru fitting you expect the shop to sell you a bike that fits. Educate yourself. Hope you find a good bike!
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Re: TRI FIT HELP [Alex060184] [ In reply to ]
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Alex,
Thank you for saying you'd not want to 'out' an individual or shop, I don't like that sort of thing either.

We here in the Fitters Forum are looking to raise the level of expertise of fitters, as well as educate the riders themselves thru these discussions. There are also offline Fitter professional groups where the business of the business is also discussed. All boats benefit from a rising tide, yes? You and your LBS/Wrench Friend should be able to get you on the right bike, and if the Specialized rep is doing things right, everyone gets smarter. Bike fitting only goes halfway if it doesn't give you an end result - a solution for the points underneath you.

Dan is quite eloquent in this article:
http://www.slowtwitch.com/...pectations_3595.html

Yes, your original fit was a 'make it work' fit, so those numbers are a compromise. Specifically as 'to make it work' they set you 9cm behind the BB. But you're a big guy, with pretty good flexion, but a little neck issue. If we suppose that your pad reach stays proportional if we rotate you forward to a steeper angle, I'll go out on a limb and say you need a Reach of 440 and a Stack of 590. So go to your Geometry charts of bikes your looking at...it will be clear what doesn't work esp because of the Stack. Agree with what Cyclenutz says about integrated front ends; being able to have a positive rise stem will aid in lack of Stack in a frame. You may still need a cm or so under the armrests for ultimate comfort.

Anne Barnes
ABBikefit, Ltd
FIST/SICI/FIST DOWN DEEP
X/Y Coordinator
abbikefit@gmail.com
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Re: TRI FIT HELP [ABarnes] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you to everyone who responded, and especially given the length and detail that you all went into. I just think its so cool that so many are willing to share knowledge and help out!

I think its also worth pointing out that even with this fit and bike i was able to push out 2:30 HIM bike splits in Aero most of the time, only really the last 10 miles or so did the neck prove slightly uncomfortable and i certainly need to point my head down so i am only viewing around 10 ft of road ahead of me.

Anne - i see your estimation of 440/590 is very similar to Cyclynutnz personal position of 450/600 - forgive my lack of understanding here but are these numbers suggest as an actual frame stack and reach or a pad stack and reach? a frame suggestion of 440/590 would only really give me one option - an XL Shiv?

I found a bike shop within 50 miles or so that has a retul fit option for about $400 - they are booked out in full for October, maybe i should wait through November to get a fitment....the longer i wait the bigger the hole this cash is burning in my pocket haha.

Thanks once again
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Re: TRI FIT HELP [Alex060184] [ In reply to ]
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Alex - yes, the 449/590 numbers are frame stack and reach. We must all be careful to describe our numbers as PAD Stack and Reach (in the case of Caymanskier) versus FRAME Stack and Reach.

For Caymanskier, his Pad S/R describes where the armpad is in space in relation to the bottom bracket. Not sure if anyone has a frame Stack taller than 600? Some bikes like the Cervelo P5 or Trek Speed Concept, will have a chart for Pad S/R on top of Frame S/R. This is extremely helpful with 'pedestal' style front ends with shims or limited stem angle options. For him, he would fit a Speed Concept XL with the base bar set in the "High Far" position. Or in Cervelo world he'd be a P5 61cm with the Adura bar setup in "Hi-V". He will still be 'short' in the stack by 2-3cm (!) so additional spacers under the armpad itself might be necessary. Of course, with Guru, they will make you a bike with a taller head tube and increase the frame stack. The drawing for that bike is generated directly out of the Guru fit machine, with necessary tweaks by the builder. There are limits to everything, of course, especially with stack - fork steerers only come so long! In the case of my 6'8" guy, with a 310mm head tube (no joke!), we had to spec a WoundUp fork with a longer steerer.

However, PAD S/R can change dramatically if you change your saddle position. Pad S/R is a more static relationship of the elbow/torso angle; Frame S/R is variable according to the stem/spacer solution. The former is dictated by the riders' physical structure, the latter is

I looked at several files of customers I've worked with who are similar to you. Using averages of their handlebar X/Y, calculating with stem and spacers. and being very conservative.
Your pad position isn't that far off, judging from the photo. I'd agree with your saying "XL Shiv", but I wouldn't say that it's your only option. If Stack is your limiter, scroll thru the database here on ST, or any other brand out there, and just look at the stack heights in those larger/largest frame sizes. However, I still fee that you need reallly hard/good numbers. You need to know where you are in space at a 78-80degree seat angle (rather than 9cm behind the BB) before worrying about anything else.

Anne Barnes
ABBikefit, Ltd
FIST/SICI/FIST DOWN DEEP
X/Y Coordinator
abbikefit@gmail.com
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Re: TRI FIT HELP [Alex060184] [ In reply to ]
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If you moved forward 60mm - would put you at 78deg if using 140mm from nose or 80.5 my way. Usually 3/4 is a decent rule of thumb for drop related to saddle fore/aft. So 45mm down.
Would put you at roughly 440,635 (pad x,y). You may need a little less drop for the sake of your neck though I think better aerobar setup may mitigate the need for this.

Note that this is just an indication of what might happen if your angles are fundamentally OK and there is no limitation on just moving around the BB and setting up the front end better. As it is I think that things are a bit more complicated than that (but not a lot, bike fit is not hard if you don't have any really unusual features).

If you were somewhere near those numbers then a 58 Cervelo (and thus a number of other brands) would be a nice option with the right bars.

Definitely worth waiting - I hold to the motto "buy it right, buy it once" - the other way is a lot more expensive and frustrating.
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Re: TRI FIT HELP [ABarnes] [ In reply to ]
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well I managed to get a retul appointment tomorrow at 530PM so we shall see what the true numbers are.

Would anyone care to change their guess or make a new one haha.

Once again thanks for the input. I'll post my report after I am done :-)

btw i cant believe im spending $400 so somebody can tell me what sized bike to ride...
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Re: TRI FIT HELP [Alex060184] [ In reply to ]
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Good to hear it, Alex, have a good time!
Remember, the fitting is about you, and where you want to "be" in space. It's not just about frame size, it's about how you are going to propel yourself down the road. Breathing, balance, even looking up ('down the road') with out strain. Saddle height, fore/aft/tilt. Crankarm length. Cleat alignment. Armpad placement, shifter placement. Stem length, stem angle, spacers. All those details.
Expect to do a moderate workout, sweat and all. It's perfectly fine to come in to the appointment having already done a swim workout (yes! your arms are already tired - aren't they always when you come to the bike in a race?).
It's difficult to 'fit for fatigue', but you are the engine. Let it rip!

Anne Barnes
ABBikefit, Ltd
FIST/SICI/FIST DOWN DEEP
X/Y Coordinator
abbikefit@gmail.com
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Re: TRI FIT HELP [ABarnes] [ In reply to ]
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And the results are in - see below.


I told the fitter that i had not decided on a bike and wanted to know what worked. He decided to use the P3 geometry as a starting place (61) which i thought was convenient given the 10 P2/P3 right outside the fitting room for sale haha. The fitter seemed to have been doing retul for many years and seemed very knowledgeable but wasnt a triathlete. So, looking at below - any second thoughts? Opinions? I am still waiting for my login for the frame finder but given these stack and reach numbers its certainly narrow for options? the P5 and Shiv fit guides which show PAD X,Y dont have my reach fitting? or am i missing something? I see the reach is to the back of the pad so if i assume i need to add another 45 to get 'center pad'?


The position felt comfortable but I guess until you go out and ride 50 you would never know. He said after I sort a bike out i can bring it back and he will tweak the bike to fit etc. He also conveniently sold me some specially made footbeds to the tune of $80 because of my collapsed arches.


So looking at this my search should be narrowed to a XL Shiv 61 P3/P5 maybe a Trek SC XL? we'll see more when i get the frame finder.



















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Re: TRI FIT HELP [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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cyclenutz .... I'd Be interested to know your thoughts also...

out of interest there is a SHIV L in the classified's section.... any of you experienced in making Shiv's fit? could i make these numbers work on a Large?
Last edited by: Alex060184: Oct 16, 14 13:43
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Re: TRI FIT HELP [Alex060184] [ In reply to ]
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Good!
Most importantly, you have a clear understanding of what you need moving forward, and your Fitter is available to consult with you.

I wouldn't say that he 'conveniently' sold you footbeds - the shoe/pedal interface is your first contact with the bike, improving that platform is critical. I would also add that, barring inaccurate placement of biomarkers, a L/R leg discrepancy of 1.7cm is remarkable.

Curious to know if the knee track shown is before or after inclusion of the footbeds? It's great to have all these bells and whistles with a Fit, but all parties involved need to quantify improvement.

The P5 has a worksheet for the pad stack/reach for the Adura basebar setup - it's page 2 of the Geometry chart you download off the site.

Anne Barnes
ABBikefit, Ltd
FIST/SICI/FIST DOWN DEEP
X/Y Coordinator
abbikefit@gmail.com
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Re: TRI FIT HELP [ABarnes] [ In reply to ]
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the knee track was after foot beds. Not to sure on the leg length to be honest, never had it mentioned before now.

The base bar set up assuming a center pad need of 435 reach and a 700 stack - numbers dont work... that kind of reach is seen on the very small framed bikes. Am i missing something?

http://www.cervelo.com/media/docs/P5geometry-new-9942a17e-25c0-47e4-9065-5db951637683-1.PDF
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Re: TRI FIT HELP [Alex060184] [ In reply to ]
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Some options for the numbers given



Not sure if seatpost will be long enough in all of them (it is in the Cervelo)


Felt would be really easy as the stock bars have massive adjustment.
Shiv may require bar change.
I'd suggest going for something with easy adjustability so that you can continue to adapt your position.
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Re: TRI FIT HELP [Alex060184] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Alex
I have been reading the whole thread and came to several conclusions
1 You need to learn technique. Your posture is abysmal. Before you spend on a bike let alone a bike fit you need to learn to sit in an efficient way so you can breathe better. I will bet that no one looked at tidal flow
2 if you pick out bikes you want before a bikefit the fitter might as well have a blind fold on when fitting. Every decision directed to your pick instead of best possible.
3 your whole process was putting band aid on band aid Start fresh learn to open your torso and drop your diaphragm when you breathe. What you are doing is the equivalent of riding with asthma.
4 Once you have improved your form the process improves.
There is much more that can be done.
See you for a fit
Happy Freedman
Orthotic Consultant
Bike Fitting Specialist
Prosthetics and Orthotics
Hospital for Special Surgery
510 East 73rd Street, Suite 201
New York, NY 10021


Happy
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