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where to improve (a list of priorities)
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It has been discussed quite a bit on this board on where to improve your aerodynamics. I was unable to participate in last week's discussion (due to a sick computer), so here's my list:

1) Body position, namely achieved by aerobars. If you don't get the body position, there's no point in any of the other aero things to do. Proper fit by a professional (or by following the fit pages of Slowtwitch) will optimise this.

2) Aero front wheel. This is where the wind hits it first, no question. I would emphasise the number of spokes, rather than how deep a section (as the less deep it is, the easier to handle and is a lot more stable). Heck,sometimes I wonder about whether or not the old days of when we would skip spokes on a semi-aero section wheel produced just as fast results as now that we have to have the 46-56mm deep wheels. This is, before the days of wattage testing (so I can't quantify the numbers here).

3) Rear disc. Pick a disc, any disc, as long as the bearings are smooth. This also is something that has been proven fast. I would almost go so far to say that it should be purchased with the front, as it is just as important as the front wheel. And in these days of highly affordable, high-quality disc wheels go (yes, I mean the Renn disc), one could get a decent set of wheels for racing for about five C-notes.

4) Clothing. This sounds silly, but loose clothing will make you slow. You don't have to have the latest, wowie neato cool expensive tri suit to realise this. Your clothes should not flap in the wind. I remember an old article in a Road Bike Action where it showed that an unzipped jersey costs you a few watts and drag coefficient points. Sloppy-fitting singlets and run shorts would probaby cost you more than an unzipped jersey (from my guess).

5) Floppy things from your head, frame and other things that cause parasitic drag. Cobb found that Fignon's pony tail (amongst other things, like lack of aerobars, etc.) cost him that oh-so famous TT in some French race against a Yank who won some Tour by eight seconds. Hmmm. What about a flapping helmet strap, an STI cable, a Bento Box, an unpinned race number, an ill-routed cable? You get the idea. This is probably the lowest cost improvement you can make to your bike. I could add to this to get a Bartol System, as it gets rid of the front mech without getting rid of the gears. It does get rid of a front changer, a cable, and the shifter, rendering the bike more mechanically simpler if not more aero. Also, cover the valve holes on your composite wheels- this is something that costs pennies, but is definitely more aero.

4) Aero helmet. Sure it's hot, but it is again one of those things that help smooth the airflow. The Louis Garneau has not been tunnel-tested that I know of, but it shares a similar concept to the shapes that have been proven to win. I like the visor version of the helmet with a pair of low-profile glasses, like the Briko Jumper.

5) Aero frame. This is the next step after you have covered all of the other things in making yourself more aero. Sure, guys have done great, fast rides on round tubes, but the reasons are two-fold: they are gifted, and their body position is perfect or near-perfect. The Aero frame is worthless if your body position is not good. The aero frame is worthless if you're on a set of 32 spoke, box-section rims. The aero frame is also worthless if you're running STI, or have a bunch of items flapping all about, or your pony tail is flapping in the wind.

The whole point is to make yourself as invisible to the wind as possible. In the end, a rider is what makes the bike unaero. Once the body position is ironed out, the wheels and everything else just enhances the good body position.
Last edited by: bunnyman: Feb 10, 03 18:26
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Re: where to improve (a list of priorities) [bunnyman] [ In reply to ]
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I totally agree the only changes I would maek to your list would be the order...

1) agree
2) clothing
3) floppy things
4) front wheel
5) rear wheel
6) frame
7) helmet
8) You could also add visor for your aero helmet... maybe even glasses like oakleys...
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Re: where to improve (a list of priorities) [taku] [ In reply to ]
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I totally agree with this post.

HOWEVER...for someone like myself, i would have to add in at #2:make the engine more aerodynamic.

I can guarntee you if i dropped 10-20lbs (from 205-180ish) my bike split would decrease a lot more than if i happened to pick up a set of wheels.

I know most guys who are looking to improve arent in the same boat, but i keep telling myself now when i am running and stuff...you are making your bike more aerodynamic, keep going! (hey, its cheaper than a disc!)

Just my 2 cents (and since im canadian, its worth nothing anyway :) )

-Kevin




"Anyone can work hard when they want to; Champions do it when they don't."
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interesting [ In reply to ]
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that nobody seems interested in forks anymore. Even though the difference between the forks out there are so big.

On another note, there is always a lot of talk about back position and arm position, but another important and often overlooked aspect is to keep your knees in. It requires training instead of spending money though, so that's a definite drawback :-)


Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle
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Re: interesting [gerard] [ In reply to ]
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Gerard,

I think that keeping the knees in is part of body position. I failed to mention that. I have ridden this way for aeons. You will find, however, that I start to buff, then ultimately take away the paint where my knees are on the top tubes of my bikes. I make the paint guy very happy every couple of years.

Forks are on the low end of priorities, and that is because I keep hearing people talk about their frame making them faster. Rest assured, I am working on the fork for my personal machine. I just have pared it (list of priorities) down a bit, and the fork rates around the same as the frame. It won't help like body positioning.

Also, it has been "forks, forks, forks-blah blah blah" ever since about 1996-97. We had our previous benchmark (Kestrel EMS, which is still a fine fork), then it was the Kinesis/QR Carbon/Illuminaero, then the Profile forks, then the Reynolds, then everyone else* and we've been over-loaded. One even claims to be worth 00:00:40 in a 40K TT!!!!! We can't seem to get excited over the next new fork, you know? The empirical data seems to be overturned weekly, and I frankly don't know who to believe!!!

IF you had noticed on my list, a lot of the things mentioned are low-cost, low-tech ways of making the bike and rider invisible to the wind. Much of what I had mentioned could negate any advantage of a slippery frame or wheels.

*by the way, Gerard- I mean no disrespect to you or your products.
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Re: where to improve (a list of priorities) [bunnyman] [ In reply to ]
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Here is my list of priorities since I think that my position is ok and that my race wheels are "aero enough"
1) More long TT type efforts (As Doc. Coggan would say, its all about Specifity of training)
2) Big gear efforts, to increse specific strength.
3) Long rides
4) Eat a bit better
5) get a bit more sleep.

andre
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Re: where to improve (a list of priorities) [bunnyman] [ In reply to ]
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you gotta see these HED bars, amazing.
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???? [ In reply to ]
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How do you justify putting an aero frame so low on the list, when those who have made/have access to direct measurements (e.g., Martin and Jeukendrup) conclude otherwise?
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Re: ???? [Anonymous] [ In reply to ]
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Could be cost. To get a new aero frame you might as well replace the whole bike. I wonder about it also. Look at Hellreigel's decision to go with round tubes at this year's Kona.
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Where is the Wolf fork [ In reply to ]
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Gerard:

So where is that hot new fork of your's Gerard? Seems last time I asked you said they would be available about now.

Should I sell that Reynolds fork I bought but have yet to install? I am still using that heavy Profile BDC fork that came with the original P3 in 2000. It seems like a very good fork, but it is really heavy. I am betting I will drop nearly a pound off the bike once I replace it.

Art
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Re: Where is the Wolf fork [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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We have it available for aftermarket sales now in limited quantities. It's just a very tough fork to make with the new dropout design (the dropouts are carbon with only a small Alu cap to protect it from the skewer clamping). This makes the dropout very strong since it is integrated in the fork leg rather than glued in, and it is also the reason the fork can be 365 grams. But it takes a lot more time to lay the carbon this way, so supply is limited and the price is high (It's $449 price tag is a bit higher than the other top forks on the market, but then again in my opinion it offers aerodynamics and a low weight, not just one out of two).

But one note of caution, the Wolf is only available in 700c for now.


Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle
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Re: where to improve (a list of priorities) [bunnyman] [ In reply to ]
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What do you guys think about the aero-water bottle mounted between the aerobars. I use one because I tend to drink more with it there but I have wondered what the cost is aerodynamically.

Jon Bergmann
http://jonbergmann.com
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Re: where to improve (a list of priorities) [JBergmann] [ In reply to ]
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It is pretty obvious that the aero drinks have a pretty substantial speed penalty (substantial relative to some of the gains people here are trying to eke out). In addition, the aero drink will have a handling impact which may or may not be substantial given your bike setup and course conditions.

Having said all that, I don't use the aero drink for races less than 1 hr. I will use it in the Lubbock 1/2 IM which usually has temps in the upper 90's and is perfectly flat (except for 8 short but ridiculously steep hills). In a race like this, hydration is crucial and I find that I will drink more frequently with a straw sticking up in my face. It seems to be similar to the comfort argument on bike fit - if you aren't comfortable enough to stay in the aero position, then it doesn't matter how aero the position is.
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No fair to short people [ In reply to ]
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Gee Gerard, us short people might feel insulted. Any plans to get me a 650 model before IM Lake Placid?
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Re: No fair to short people [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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That's what the shorter guys on CSC are saying. But they'll be riding with the Short Chord (the fork we use on the Dual) for now, and we are thinking about a 650c Wolf fork. But I can't give you a solid date for it.


Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle
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add-ons screwing up your aeroness! [ In reply to ]
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I find it amazing when I see people that obviously spent huge dollars getting their bike all tricked out for aerodynamics and then they've got bottles and bento boxes and frame pumps and on and on .....

My feeling on the jetstream/profile type water bottles up front is that regardless of the aero penalty they are the best way to go. They ensure that you can drink constantly throughout the race and they are so easy to refill on the fly. I certainly wouldn't do a race without one unless the ride was only about 20k.
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Re: where to improve (a list of priorities) [bunnyman] [ In reply to ]
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Bunnyman etal

What do you reckon to Mike Burrows (Lotus bike etc etc) perspective on forks? He said changing forks, even aero forks, on a bike to a single (mono) bladed fork is the most important things you can do to improve the aerodynamics of a bike.

AndyA
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Re: where to improve (a list of priorities) [AndyA] [ In reply to ]
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Burrows knows what he's talking about. However, his mono-blade fork is probably one of the hardest things to pull off, especially with the proprietary hub that needs to be used on something like that. Frankly, I don't think that the weight-conscious folks who comprise the consumers of today would find a three pound hub/fork assembly as acceptable, though I am sure that a one-sided fork would garner some looks.

Remember when you make something one-sided that bears the load of two sides, you must over-build to compensate. Cannondale has done it successfully with their Lefty fork, but comparing high-performance mountain bikes with road bikes is an apples/oranges comparison. I won't even venture to design a system like that, nor would the UCI even want anyone to submit something like that (I would venture to say).

His later fork had tested (according to articles written about the bike) as well, if not better than the original design. He had to change it when he was going to put the Lotus into production. I have to look carefully at the design and compare it to the Giant fork he had designed to do some comparisons on surface area, etc.

I have never discounted the importance of a good fork, but I have put it far down on the list as there are many other things that people to to ruin their aerodynamics. Think of that Greg dude who beat that dude with the pony tail in that one race in that foreign place over in Europe. He had the simplest bike, but he had three things: body position (achieved with an aerobar and some pieces of Coke cans), fast wheels, and nothing hanging or flapping about. His G'd given strength and other gifts helped, but I am sure his bike would be laughable in the wind tunnel.

The fork is important, sure. It could even be above the frame. But I still place it in low priority in relationship to great body position, fast wheels, and keeping the bike clean.
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Re: where to improve (a list of priorities) [bunnyman] [ In reply to ]
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Bunnyman

All agreed, I knew the fork was heavy, but not that heavy!

I don't suppose you have a web site with the articles written about the bike you mentioned?

So do you think a really light monoblade would be an advance in current bike aerodynamics? Maybe something along the lines of Cobbs Oval design fork with the gap i.e. two big aero forks behind each other?

Maybe the dude would have won by 28 seconds if he was on an aerobike!

Cheers

AndyA
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Re: where to improve (a list of priorities) [AndyA] [ In reply to ]
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The articles I have read were pre-internet. One review I read was in Bicycle Guide, another was in Winning. This is some old-school stuff, you know? You may be able to find a few articles doing a search. You never know.

You gotta think of this: the only steer tube material (at the time) was steel, the hub had to be extra heavy for the added hardware, and the fork was not light. There were a lot of little fibres in that fork.

Maybe improved moulding and fabrication methods, along with lighter materials could make the fork/hub assembly around two pounds. But still, most weight conscious triathletes would not even think of something like that, no matter how cool it looked.

If it could be done, I would imagine that it would be so proprietary that it would be on one's complete bike (i.e. sold as a system). I would say that the system would have to be so revolutionary that it would be prohibitively expensive. Maybe where the weight could be saved would be in the wheel, but it would have to be something pretty advanced with a lot of wowie neato cool materials (i.e. honeycomb, not foam core; carbon rim). But the hub and wheel would have to be working with the fork.

To go so far to say that it would beat what is currently available would be questionable. I am not sure of the whereabouts of the old Great Britain's olympic Lotus bikes are, nor would anyone even want to go to the trouble of testing a proprietary, obsolete, and frankly unattainable system against what's currently available. I would also think that only a manufacturer who wants a niche market (i.e. non-UCI approved stuff) would tackle something like that, and the payoff would be very small. Maybe this is a project for an engineering student who has an unquenchable thirst for all things bicycle and has the proper resources at their disposal.

If I were an engineer, I would maybe do a bit of research for the fun of it. But I am an amateur designer and fabricator who can only draw my "engineering experience" from what I have broken over the years. I can fix a lot of composite things, but will not do it for anybody else except for those who don't expect much. And the first bunnyman bike is still a year or two years away.
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Re: where to improve (a list of priorities) [bunnyman] [ In reply to ]
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"I could add to this to get a Bartol System"


Has anyone used this system - do you like it - where can you get it - what sort of cost?


Al
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Re: where to improve (a list of priorities) [alex] [ In reply to ]
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I love my Bartol system, despite a few easrly hiccups and the occasional, unexpected odd gear change.

I have forgotten who is distributing it here in the States. I bought mine at a premium from Cat Bikes (Cheetah), but it is cheaper through XXcycle.com. I bought mine for $200, but XXcycle.com has them a lot cheaper and in different colours.

Tiso bike can direct you to where it is being distributed here in the States.

If you buy one, e mail me and I will tell you everything you need to know, including how to file down one tooth that causes silly chain hops.
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Re: where to improve (a list of priorities) [bunnyman] [ In reply to ]
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Bunnyman



Your points on a monoblade have me thinking now so I have posted a new thread. Please see "Would you buy a sub 15ib monobladed bike"



Cheers AndyA
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