<<Now ... if you have a magic wand that can erase all guns from existence ... then we should talk. =) >>

Since religion has been the basis of many conflicts throughout the world, we should ban it too. Not everybody uses religious doctrine for good. So let's just ban the practice of organized religion. The world would be much better off and a lot less violent.

Rights are not "need based"

Brett

<<most powerful pistol that will fit in a fanny pack?>>

S & W makes a few small frame revolvers. For a limited time, they had an alloy framed 5 shot chambered in .38 Special that would handle +P loads (I'm not sure about +P+). My only contention with alloy framed firearms are the tendancy to cut the top strap if you put a lot of rounds through the weapon. I have the stainless steel version, weighs more, but I don't sweat putting +P+ loads through it.

Brett

Wouldn't want to p*ss any of you guys off in the heat of the moment otherwise I might be a dead man. If you tried strangling me after a few seconds you might come to your senses and ask "what am I doing". Once a trigger is pulled the damage is done.

Do you get my point about hand guns? The statistics speak for themselves.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

<<The statistics speak for themselves.>>

You are absolutely correct, the statistics do speak for themselvs. Millions of law abiding citizens enjoy the safe use of firearms for sport year after year without incident.

The U.S. averages roughly 50,000 deaths per year from drunk driving. I say ban alcoholic beverages and the roads will become safe. I don't consume beer myself, so I see no reason anybody else should either. The statisics speak for themselvs.

As far as smuggling goes, Joe Kennedy (yes, those Kennedys) smuggled Canadian Whiskey (and other spirits) into the U.S. during Prohibition. That's how a large portion of the Kennedy fortune was created.

<<Wouldn't want to p*ss any of you guys off in the heat of the moment otherwise I might be a dead man.>>

What's the name of that guy who plays (played) for the Canuck's? Last week, didn't he blind-side sucker punch one of our boys and drive him into the ice resulting in fractured vertebrea? Another example of why handguns should be banned...

Brett

"Another example of why handguns should be banned..."

Because of Kennedy's, prohibition, Canadian whiskey and hockey...do you want to run that by me one more time again. Somehow I feel to see the connection.

Yes, I've sport shooted, with a rifle. However, most Americans don't buy hand guns for sport shooting. And yes the statistics do speak for themselves - the US has the highest rate of hand gun crime/homocides in the western world.

<<Because of Kennedy's, prohibition, Canadian whiskey and hockey...do you want to run that by me one more time again. Somehow I feel to see the connection>>

Well, there was a few hours where I mysteriously could not post to the forum. So, the comment about Joe Kennedy smuggling whiskey was referring to your earlier post about firearms being smuggled into Canada from the U.S. Is the gang problem a result of firearms? The hockey reference was an attempt to highlight that violence/injury can occur without any involvment of an inanimate object, such as a pistol or hockey stick.

Cerveloguy, I'm going to include you in the group of people I mentioned in an earlier post. That is the group of intellegent people who for some reason that I don't understand, do not apply the same logic or thought process to banning automobiles or alcohol that they apply to firearms/handguns etc. I can drag out statistics and anecdotal evidence showing how alcohol has negativly impacted the lives of Americans, Canadians, Europeans, human health in general, etc. You have mentioned that you enjoy a good brew most nights. I am going to make the assumption that your enjoyment of beer/wine/spirits has not negatively impacted your life or your family. So, why should the government ban/tax to high heaven/over-regulate a product you consume responsibly? How about your car? I'm sure you have a very clean driving record. Some people cannot seem to manage their lives in a manner that allows them to not be dangerous while behind the wheel. Should you have your "right" to operate a motorized vehile responsibly restricted/revoked?

I hope I haven't insulted you as a person or your intellect, because that was not my intention. I'm not calling or implying that your are some filthy gun grabbing pinko-commie or anything even close. Perhaps one reason the United States experiences a high rate of firearms violence is due to the lax punishment criminals receive for commiting a violent crime. I mean this in the friendliest manner I can deliver via a medium such as the internet: Next time you are sitting down and enjoying a good microbrew, think about what your reaction would be if your "right" to drink a beer was to be threatend.

Now, go out and get some running miles in;-)

Brett

Cerveloguy, I understand your argument against handguns,but consider them for a moment for self defense. SELF-DEFENSE (im not yelling:) is what its all about. Their is a large segment of our population that is in no position to defend themselves from an aggressive,large,male attacker.. Think about a single mom, 5'2", a-buck-fifteen, home alone with small kids. Who is going to defend them from a madman???? Not you, not me, the cops may take 20min to respond to the 911 call. And it's not just women, it's elderly people, it's the guy in a wheelchair, it's anyone weaker than the thugs.Don't these people have a right to defend their lives and their families from predators who would kill or maim them?

I remember one of the funniest TV news stories I ever heard was when I lived in Atlanta. Small community west of Atlanta, no one home at this residence, dad at work, mom at the store, little brother off somewhere. Big brother, home from college and asleep on the couch, when he hears someone trying to break the door down. What does big brother do? call the cops??? no, no time.... Time gets incredibly short in these scenarios.... he does have time to run in his room and fetch his .44mag w/scope (we do use these for hunting down here) He tells the pair of thugs that he's about to drop the hammer but they are undeterred. So as they come in the door, w/ weapon if memory serves correct, he lets them hold one. TV reporter, "what was going through your mind as they were bearing down on you?" Kid, (in the thickest Ga. accent, it was beautiful!!!) " I was thinking I might be able to get both them SOB's with one shot!!!!" I remember thinking that is one salty college kid:) Moral to the story, the kid with the handgun prevailed, but what if it would have been mama or little brother at home?? they are certainly doomed in a physical struggle with two armed men... Think about it... When the chips are down, sometimes the only option is to branish or use the dreaded handgun. I don't understand why our learned Senators like Teddy K, chuck Schumer, etc...refuse to allow a weaker person in our society a chance to level out the playing field.

You are helping people by being a living breathing example of fitness and a healthier lifestyle thats 10 times better than any government regulation. For the most part the government is not in the problem solving business they are in the power and control business. Tabacco is a perfect example. If health is the concern it should be outlawed no ifs ands or buts. They are not interested in health just a Mafia shake down of the industry which they continue to subsidize while most of the funds are misappropriated to other than "tabacco education" ,whatever that is, purposes.

"So, the comment about Joe Kennedy smuggling whiskey was referring to your earlier post about firearms being smuggled into Canada from the U.S"

You can smuggle Pabst or Samuels up here any time.

Prohibition was a "made in the USA" invention. Totally stupid laws, since 95% of the US population drank alcohol in some degree, but it made gansters rich and caused an incredible amount of violence all in the name of "law and order".

I've lived in the USA and am familiar with your mentality about guns. I've also lived in England and have seen a dramatic difference with a country where even the police didn't normally carry guns. There is a cultural gun history involved in the US and I understand this, but I feel that the NRA is a very negative force in American society and just a PR front for the gun manufacturers with a pretty face called Charleton at the helm.

I understand collectors, sport shooters, etc having hand guns and don't have a problem with this. My dad had an air force issued Berretta hand gun that we sport shooted with when I was a kid. Unfortunately the American system allows any kook to buy a gun at any time and this just feeds a paranoia that then you must have a gun just in case you get in a fender bender with some irate dude that has one under his car seat.

Again, I will state, the homicide statistics speak for themselves. It's part of the American culture and IMO caused by too easily an availabilty to hand guns. All I request is please keep it south of the Canadian border.

Yeah .... well .... uhhh .... ummm ... You know .... Hmmmm .... Uhhh .... Lemme See ... Aaaah .... Uhhhh .... Ouch. =)

I said earlier that if there weren't guns we'd beat each other to death with wiffle ball bats if we had to [I should have said "violence" instead of "guns" in my Magic Wand quote ... bad choice of symbolism on my part]. What we've got here is the same thing as in other situations we've discussed ... taking away the means doesn't take away the behavior/cause.

As a teacher, I don't believe in punishing everyone for the actions of a few. There will always be students that talk when they shouldn't and affect others' learning environment ... removing everyone's vocal chords is not the answer. That same logic applies here [and in regards to fast food or whatever is talked of being banned this week].

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

<<Prohibition was a "made in the USA" invention. Totally stupid laws, since 95% of the US population drank alcohol in some degree, but it made gansters rich and caused an incredible amount of violence all in the name of "law and order". >>

And this is where I fail to understand why people believe it would be any different with the prohibition of firearms. Criminals, buy their very nature, do not obey laws. Whether it be killing, harming, robbing, stealing, smuggling and the list goes on.

<<Again, I will state, the homicide statistics speak for themselves. It's part of the American culture and IMO caused by too easily an availabilty to hand guns.>>

And there are laws on the books making homicde, regardless of instrument used, a crime. Just like there are laws on the books making it crime to get behind the wheel of an automobile while piss-drunk. But it still happens and we (the U.S.) lose about 50,000 lives annually as a result. Which mechanism should we ban, the car or the bottle?

I doubt I will be able to change your mind on this issue, unfortunatly. I do hope you beleive me when I tell you that I do respect you and wish you no ill-will because of our disagreement. We still agree that Led Zepplin kicks ass and perhaps we'll meet at a race someday, share a beer afterwards and talk about anything but firearms.

Brett

<<Yeah .... well .... uhhh .... ummm ... You know .... Hmmmm .... Uhhh .... Lemme See ... Aaaah .... Uhhhh .... Ouch. =)

I said earlier that if there weren't guns we'd beat each other to death with wiffle ball bats if we had to [I should have said "violence" instead of "guns" in my Magic Wand quote ... bad choice of symbolism on my part]. What we've got here is the same thing as in other situations we've discussed ... taking away the means doesn't take away the behavior/cause.>>

My bad, sorry.

Brett

"I doubt I will be able to change your mind on this issue...Led Zepplin kicks ass... share a beer afterwards and talk about anything"

I'm up for that any time. Posted here before that just because you don't always agree with somebody doesn't mean that you don't like 'em.