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EPO in tri?
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Just saw this on cyclingnews.com. Is this a new story?

Two questioned in France

Two former members of the CC Etupes amateur team have been called for questioning for suspected drug trafficking after mailing a package containing five ampoules of EPO, according to French newspaper l'Est Republicain. The judge Christian Kulyk has called Emmanuel Granat and Rémy Mellano, as the two are suspected of sending the EPO to Olivier Marceau, a former triathlon world champion. Just saw this on cyclingnews.com. Is this a new story? Two questioned in France Two former members of the CC Etupes amateur team have been called for questioning for suspected drug trafficking after mailing a package containing five ampoules of EPO, according to French newspaper l'Est Republicain. The judge Christian Kulyk has called Emmanuel Granat and Rémy Mellano, as the two are suspected of sending the EPO to Olivier Marceau, a former triathlon world champion.
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Re: EPO in tri? [Marlin] [ In reply to ]
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ohohoho....cyclingnews stirring crap?
The events are all related on Marceau's website.

It happened just before the Nice world cup event last season (and long while ago).
It was discussed a lot in lequipe.fr etc...

Marceau has been cleared of everything. He is a very clean guy.

The police in France sees doping as more important that catching killers apparently.

The facts: a guy asked Marceau if a cycling friend of his could stay at his place in Nice for a bit of training. Marceau said yes. Then he asked if he could use his address to have some material sent to him. Marceau said yes. Unbeknown to him that he had EPO sent to his postal address...the cops released all the information before hearing any parties. Then it was in lequipe.fr then on TV.

The two guys admitted they used Marceau's friendliness and kindness (and naive attitude) and Marceau has been cleared (a while ago...).

maybe cyclingnews.com has better things to do than stirr crap...
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Re: EPO in tri? [Marlin] [ In reply to ]
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This happened a few months ago. Customs found the EPO in Nice. When questioned, Marceau claimed it was for a friend. Said friend came forward and said he'd had it mailed to Marceau's address for some obscure reason that escapes me now. Marceau incidentally has "switched nations" and scored a qualifying spot for Athens under the Swiss flag...make of it what you will. From my point of view, this is just the tip of the iceberg in our sport. I think the age group ranks are even more rife with this and whatever other products are freely available.

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Re: EPO in tri? [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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ALL the guys "caught" taking drugs in our sport are said to be "nice guys" by others. I can think of 3 nandralone cases alone in which the accused was and continues to be tagged as "a nice guy . . . "

Only those who know them best can "know" one way or the other . . . and even then, do they? Your claiming Marceau is a nice guy and naive is exactly what was said about Ben Johnson. It may be so but it has nothing to do with the damning circumstances he was in.

A former world champion who is clean as a whistle should NEVER be that naive. The whole thing smells to me, in part also because he is now all of a sudden racing for Switzerland. And when it comes to linking one country with EPO, SUI has to be near the top of the list.

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Re: EPO in tri? [ironguide] [ In reply to ]
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Marceau switched to Switzerland for disagreement with the french fed (and as you live in france, you know they're a pain in the butt to deal with)...

Besides, he ALWAYS had dual citizenship...he did what many aussies did, go to an other country to make sure he can go to the games...

He was cleared in the story. wasn't charged with anything and there is no reason why in sport more than in life you have to prove you are not guilty...
innocent until proven guilty applies here as well...
maybe you've spent too much time in France already. That said, yes there is CERTAINLY EPO in Triathlon, maybe Marceau is on, but he was cleared.
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Re: EPO in tri? [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Francois,



Isn't "naive" a french word? I think you're being extremely naive now. I'm not saying that Marceau is "clean or dirty", but to come out and publicaly defend an athlete, ANY athlete, is a very naive atitude. One thing sports history should teach us is to never vouch for any athlete. This is very sad, I know, but true...



Paulo

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"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com
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Re: EPO in tri? [smartasscoach] [ In reply to ]
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I am not publicly defending an athlete, just the fact that you are innocent until proven guilty....
if it's true for killers, rapists etc...shouldn't it be true for athletes as well?
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Re: EPO in tri? [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Merci Francois. I didn't have time to check around so figured I could post here and have the research done for me. I like Marceau as an athlete, so was curious.
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Re: EPO in tri? [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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You're right, anything with the words "French" and "Fed" in the same line usually means more pain-in-the-ass dealings. Which makes us agree on another thing, too, that some days it's very easy to acknowledge one's spent too much time in France. [insert cha-grin icon here]

Anyway, in Napoleonic law it's not so cut and dried that you're innocent until proven guilty. So this being France, the circumstance, the sport, the dearth of drug testing (none at last year's long course worlds as you know...), the multiple positive tests of previous world and Ironman winners, and the nature of the sport makes me say it went away too easily. I am glad there is further investigation.

Drug creep in any sport is disheartening. What it does is give those who want to live, train and race clean a false sense of what is achievable. When they eventually do break down and find out later that SoMeone else was able to hammer themselves in the same way but didn't break down because they were on drugs -- that is disheartening.

Drugs do not add to the lexicon of human performance -- they rob us of the ability to decide what is truly achievable. For that reason, I couldn't care less what happens to the health of someone who chooses to take drugs for performance-enhancing reasons.

My concern lies with all the people who have been duped into reaching for a level of performance that they believed was inspired by the human spirit, not fueled by banned substances.

Any professional living off the sport as Marceau and others have managed to do should distance themselves as far as possible from anything associated with banned substances. Or alternatively, go ahead and take them to their heart's content but end their career at that point. He's had plenty of time to learn how to be professional -- this was amateurish at best.

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Re: EPO in tri? [Marlin] [ In reply to ]
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There is no "EPO" in "triathlon". Just like there's no "I" in "team".
I know nice guys that have doped. I know a$$holes that have doped. Personality has not much to do with the will to win at whatever cost.
To stay relatively sane and sharp, my standard assumtion is that everyone is doping but me. Even Mom.
b

"What's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded."
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Re: EPO in tri? [bobo] [ In reply to ]
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heard beer will be added to the list...you will sure test positive! :-)
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Re: EPO in tri? [ironguide] [ In reply to ]
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As François said, Marceau switched from racing for France to racing for Switzerland because he disagreed with the French federation and thought it would be easier (and he could do it more his way) to qualify for Athens.

This switch happened WAY BEFORE this EPO thing so it is definitely not a result of it. Your claims on this are wrong.

As to whether Marceau is doped or not, your guess is as good as mine (and anybody's) and it would be true for any other Triathlete in this world. WE DON'T KNOW UNTIL WE KNOW, and even when we know, we're not sure we know. That is the main problem with doping.
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Re: EPO in tri? [ironguide] [ In reply to ]
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There are drugs in all sports, however, in the U.S. eyes are closed to this fact. The UCI does a thorough job of investigating and enforcing sanctions on those that are caught. It also seems that Police in these other countries have a little more leeway to investigate and go after those involved with doping.

What would happen if the NFL or any other pro organization began to truly test for and investigate the use of banned substances?

This is why you hear so much more about doping in cycling than virtually any other sport.

I have no doubt that there is much doping occurring in triathlon as well. We all have to admit that we enjoy watching the times fall in iron distance events and would love to see somebody break the eight hour mark in Hawaii. But is this possible without doping?

I came to cycling and triathlon from a background in competitive bodybuilding and powerlifting....fast twitch to slow twitch. You talk about drug infested sports, even at the local level. When professional bodybuilding began a solid testing program, the athletes, er, I mean performers became much less than the freaks they use to be. People stopped going to watch the contests and stopped using the same supplements that these guys were paid to endorse...even though they had never used the product. In the end a lot of money was being lost by all involved and therefore the drug testing stopped. The bodybuilders today are freakier than ever and the money is back.

I never have and never will use doping to make me better, and I don't support those who do....or do I inadvertently by buying or using a certain product?

There is a lot of money involved with doping and those that are creating the drugs are a good step ahead of those who are trying to catch them.

I am glad to be involved in cycling now where athletes are questioned and investigated and where the seriousness of doping is realized and people are trying to do something about it.

By the way, is it just coincidence that I change from one sport where you shave your legs to another in which you do the same?
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Re: EPO in tri? [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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[snip]

i don't want to appear the asshole, but who was the cyclist?

1. the EPO got sent to somebody
2. that somebody was not marceau
3. we all, marceau included, decry drugs in sport
4. those who take drugs ought to be outed
5. mareau knows who the guy was
6. those who sent the EPO know who they sent it to
7. so who was the guy?

did i miss that somewhere?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: EPO in tri? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Then he couldnt be in the "cool guy/pro athlete club anymore". It seems like all these athletes that decry drugs in sport because they are "clean", always seem to "know who is on drugs" but will not name names. I wonder if the offender was a triathlete and not a cyclist and Marceau had to compete directly against him if he would blow the whistle? Didn't Van Lierde claim his cycling training partner was Frank VandenBrouke? How many times has that guy been busted? He is the guy who actually once claimed the drugs were for his dog? Did Luc just assume it was O.K. because "he's not in my sport"

I guess the moral is: if you are a Pro Triathlete, just hang around doper cyclists because your "sport is clean" and those guys are more fun. I once had a professor who would always book his seats in the smoking section of the plane even though he was a non-smoker. His reasoning was that smoker were just more interesting people. Maybe EPO works the same way?
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Re: EPO in tri? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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yes you missed something the sender and the recipient of the EPO were arrested... (Amateur cyclists).
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Re: EPO in tri? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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maybe he did a mistake by associating with guys who use drugs. Still looking for their names on his site.
However, he made several public comments, apologies etc...despite not being charged for anything...
How many pros do you know put all their tests (including hormonal results that trace back much earlier than urine testing) on their website:


http://oliviermarceau.free.fr/...au/transparence.html

Comments in french: "since the parcel story, I keep absolutely everything and share it with you. I have nothing to hide. Those who are interested can follow the report of my medical exams."

the guy was an elite 2 bike rider. Forgot his name (could be one the two names mentioned in the first post, but I am not sure). Marceau said he didn't know the guy was on drug, which I believe. When I rode in France, some guys were using drugs and did it openly, others were secret. I discovered one guy was on the juice and it really surprised me. The guy didn't send the EPO to Olivier Marceau, he was staying with Marceau at the time and had it shipped to his place (or post office, can't remember)
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Re: EPO in tri? [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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"How many pros do you know put all their tests (including hormonal results that trace back much earlier than urine testing) on their website"

hey, just asking who the guy was. one thing we find out when we enter any sphere in which there are egos and money involved: secrecy is a lot more prevalent than transparency. just looking for a little sunshine, that's all.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: EPO in tri? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I wasn't attacking your remarks at all...I know they are genuine questions. sorry don't have the answer.
just answered to some other remarks as well on the same post.
sorry for the confusion
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Re: EPO in tri? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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the two cyclists are Emmanuel Granat and Rémy Mellano.
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Re: EPO in tri? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I was at my chiropractor's in Antibes yesterday. Two little stories came up, one about a local amateur cyclist who was semi-pro awhile ago, who has nothing much in the way of results or career to aim for -- but he's on the juice (but still isn't winning much). The other story is about the French championships a few years ago in Clermont Ferrad. The chiro's sister-in-law is a nurse at the local hospital there and told him that in the days before the race when all the riders had arrived, the hospital's entire stock of EPO went "missing" overnight!

Maybe doping is so rife over here that Marceau couldn't possibly disassociate himself from those who use it because he'd find himself all alone! :-) Then again, I shouldn't generalize. There was a thread at another popular tri forum some time ago in which the North American writers were openly discussing which andro-including supplement would help them best and why they were entitled to take it. I know a late 40's cyclist in Canada who supplements to help him tolerate his long rides every week. He's stopped competing and justifies it in that way.

I could bring up another dozen stories of riders or triathletes caught, accused, or witnesses to doping. My favourite is about someone popping there head into the victory party of a major major triathlon years ago asking if anyone in the room could piss for him! Open and brazen. Anyway, I tend to keep more to myself than mix around, so I figure that if I have access to all these stories, it can only be the tip of the iceberg. Perhaps Bobo is right, the only way to stay sane is to adopt a cynical defense.

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Re: EPO in tri? [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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I checked out Marceau's site and the tests he posted. It takes courage and commitment to do so and I think it is commendable that he does this.

Now, take this with a grain of salt, because I'm going to play devil's advocate a bit here.

1) Before the last Games, an athlete was required by their federation to go to a doctor and submit themselves for a full workup. The doctor was in Switzerland because the athlete was training there. Upon examining the athlete, the doctor asked "What would you like me to put on the form?" The response was shock and some dismay, but no surprise -- the athlete simply said "be honest."

2) Thereafter, the athlete's coach had someone watch the waiting room of said doctor. A certain someone appeared regularly once a week. No comment on who/what/where/when/why -- just an observation. This has nothing to do with Marceau, just a commentary on sports medicine in Switzerland.

3) If I'm reading Marceau's latest results correctly [and I am not a doctor and so am entirely capable of gross misinterpretation and error], the Hämatokrit column for 02.01.2004 shows 0.50. I followed the link posted by François.

I am not making any comments on Marceau's character or that of anyone else [except perhaps the Swiss doctor]. He put the information out there, which says something. Obviously others are interested in what is going on or the links wouldn't have been posted here. As someone above stated, the trouble is that we cannot know what is real and what is not. And so the efforts of those athletes who race "real" run the risk of contamination by the cynicism of guys like Bobo and increasingly myself. I used to believe that our sport was relatively clean and free of this, but I wisened up awhile ago.

The problem of drugs in sport is not an issue of the health of the abusers, it is an issue of the well-being of the clean and the real who give their all and make a total commitment only to find out they are up against corruption in the system and in their fellow competitors.

We watch sports and compete because it is a microcosm of our lives. We take inspiration from the achievements of those who prevail and win against the odds. We feel our spirits lifted when we hear the stories of the hurdles overcome by athletes who emerge as champions.

When we learn that these same figures were weak, that they were false cheaters, that they caved in to temptation, it demeans our spirit and our willingness to believe. It corrupts our optimism and faith in the greater good.

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Re: EPO in tri? [ironguide] [ In reply to ]
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I have to admit that in the cycling world (and cat 1 in France was the last thing before pro when I was there, until they rename it elite 1 or 2 I believe)
and truly, I knew just a very few that were clean...many others would admit using something and I was offered "stuff" (pot belge, amphetamines, steroids...)...that said I didn't care much, I thought I wanted to see how fast I could go, not how fast some stuff could make me and still managed good results.

Result: I have to deal with the fact that people cheat...ok...not any different than being a student...they were cheaters there too...

Now I could enter cynicism mode, but I decided not to. I recall a story that was VERY interesting (and hope giving)...A german and swedish physio lab (If I can find the reference I will put it here) wanted to show that you can reach your max level without drugs. Their theory was that the very efficient drugs in endurance sports (they focused only on endurance sports) were hormones we produced naturally and therefore, playing with training cycles, sleeping cycles and food intake, it should be possible to increase the amount produced in a natural way. They actually managed to prove this for EPO and growth hormon. They even contacted some professional cycling teams to tell them: there is an alternative to doping with adequate training, food intake etc...an insider told me the answer was "why would we do this, we can use injections"....

so, my take on drugs in (endurance) sports is that, there is an alternative. you have to be very dedicated, but you can do it without drugs, and be at the top. I know some guys at (or close to) the tops that are clean (people I know VERY well, that stayed home with me and have nothing to hide). I knew some in cycling (none at the top though)...

as for stories...we have plenty too... :-) but I will keep my what you call naive take on the sport.
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Re: EPO in tri? [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Hang on, I never called you naive! That was someone else. What I said was that you calling Marceau naive and a nice guy was reminiscent of what they said about Ben Johnson. I agree with everything you're saying, but you came to a fork in the road where you decided to pursue sport to see what your own potential was, not to make a living at it or pursue it professionally.

I agree that human performance can be maximized without drugs, but what drugs do is enable the cheaters to reach the same or similar level without making the same sacrifices the non-cheaters need to make. That takes the soul out of it, more so when these people claim to be making huge sacrifices, overcoming hurdles, etc.

Back to the Marceau story. If you would be so good as to translate the story at the following link for the board

http://www.xclusivetri.com/...articles/news151.htm

it would be make for an interesting discussion point. Marceau explains what happened, something like this: "I was riding with my cycling buddy and we started talking about banned substances. He told me that there's products available that can help performance that are legal and without consequence for one's health and that might help me reach my objectives. That's where we left off... A couple of days later I get a note from this guy saying he knows someone who's going to send some product to me, but I won't be there to accept the package. Can I have him send it to your place?" etc. etc.

You get the picture. I have two problems with the statement:

i) In another news release it was mentioned the package was addressed to Marceau's wife.

ii) I get registered mail sent to me here from time to time and when I'm not home to receive it, I head to the post office at my convenience to pick up the mail. Marceau's buddy could have done the same. It's not that hard.

It all doesn't add up in my view.

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translation (rough) [ In reply to ]
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There are doping stories around Olivier Marceau since the last world cup events in Nice, last september
Since the indicdent that happened on sept 10, 2003 and mentioned quickly and unclearly in L'Equipe, Oct 17 and 19, I feel the need to give frank and precise explanations about this incident.

I was riding with a friend (a cyclist) and we came to talk about the limits of doping (endless subject). During this discussion, he talked to me about legal and safe (health wise) ways to optimize my chances of success for my coming objectives. We then went apart during the ride, after these comments
A few days later, I get a phone cal from my friend who tells me "I know someone who will send me something but I won't be there to get them, can I have them sent to you".
I was surprised with this, but busy doing something else, I said yes.
Next day, phone call from the customs in Nice, telling me the package contained 5 vials of EPO. It is true that 3 days before the Nice world cup, in Nice, receiving this package...the scenario was clear for the custom officers and not looking good at all for me.
The report of the young cyclist who recognized being responsible for sending this without my consent, I was set free by the police.
But some people who must be bored to death in their lives, started spreading rumors, each adding his own little thing to the story to make it more juicy.
My team Poissy and myself went ahead and revealed everything before the team french championship.
The newspaper l'Equipe, also revealed the story in an article, correct, but not explicite. Several newspapers, radio and TV stations (specially in Switzerland) related the facts pushing forwards with
titles such as "Marceau in a doping story", "France traps switzerland to steal away a chance of medal", "Marceau risks 2 years of suspension for doping", each wanting to be the first to reveal the information without veriifying the facts.

Let things be clear, I am an honest person, I have full confidence in my abilities as everything I did so far, I did it without illegal aid. I want to thank from the bottom of my heart the people who trust me and my team poissy who never gave credit to this story.

I entirely admit my lack of vigilance and being naive, but am still dedicated to be the best I can be etc...etc...

below the words of Remy Melano

I admit that comments of Marceau, and admit that I have put Olivier Marceau and myself in a delicate situation, without having measured the consequences.
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