I thought uranium was mined too?
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Re: The West Virginia Mine Disaster. [tri_bri2]
[ In reply to ]
Re: The West Virginia Mine Disaster. [AndrewJ]
[ In reply to ]
I gotta agree. It is all about death and tragedy, not any liberal bias. AOL, which is quite a bastion of right wing conservatism, based on the online polls they conduct regarding current issues, has been posting a horrid picture of a grief stricken daughter all day. A little respect and dignity to the families isn't too much to ask for.
Somebody, apparently not somebody in charge, overheard a cell phone conversation, and clearly could therefore have only heard half the conversation, and jumped the gun. To accuse officials of lying is ludicrous. Do you think there would be any way of covering up deaths? But the media loves to stir up the subjects in these stories to promote and prolong the opportunity of dramatic news coverage.
Behold the turtle! He makes progess only when he sticks his neck out. (James Bryant Conant)
GET OFF THE F*%KING WALL!!!!!!! (Doug Stern)
Brevity is the soul of wit. (William Shakespeare)
Somebody, apparently not somebody in charge, overheard a cell phone conversation, and clearly could therefore have only heard half the conversation, and jumped the gun. To accuse officials of lying is ludicrous. Do you think there would be any way of covering up deaths? But the media loves to stir up the subjects in these stories to promote and prolong the opportunity of dramatic news coverage.
Behold the turtle! He makes progess only when he sticks his neck out. (James Bryant Conant)
GET OFF THE F*%KING WALL!!!!!!! (Doug Stern)
Brevity is the soul of wit. (William Shakespeare)
Re: The West Virginia Mine Disaster. [trio_jeepy]
[ In reply to ]
Trio, I suspect that Larry is being sarcastic.
Still, I have to agree with his post, however he meant it. I'm under the impression that the coal mining industry has made great strides in safety in recent years. (Maybe due in large part to regulation, or not- I don't know.) It's, you know, one of those inherently dangerous activities.
Or one could conclude that you want to lower the bar for industrial responsibility to the point where multiple deaths and mayhem are acceptable costs of doing business and not news.
Multiple deaths and mayhem are acceptable costs, and not news, in a whole lot of contexts. Drive lately?
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Still, I have to agree with his post, however he meant it. I'm under the impression that the coal mining industry has made great strides in safety in recent years. (Maybe due in large part to regulation, or not- I don't know.) It's, you know, one of those inherently dangerous activities.
Or one could conclude that you want to lower the bar for industrial responsibility to the point where multiple deaths and mayhem are acceptable costs of doing business and not news.
Multiple deaths and mayhem are acceptable costs, and not news, in a whole lot of contexts. Drive lately?
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Re: The West Virginia Mine Disaster. [vitus979]
[ In reply to ]
Perhaps, but a key difference between driving and mining (I can't believe I have to write this) is that in mining many of the safety decisions are either taken out of the miners' hands or beyond his purview. At least when one drives, there are things one can do to mitigate risk. While a miner can say, not smoke down there, a lot of the safety comes from the employer and probably include systemic management issues they can't control. Not to mention the economic necessity part of the equation.
Of course mining is inherently "dangerous" versus let's say, accounting. The only question is how dangerous and what we consider a tolerable cost. The problem here is one of assymmetric incentives. While most of America will care exclusively about the monetary cost of coal and its drivers, miners and their families will probably have a slightly more nuanced view about the cost which incorporates a bunch of other issues, including death. In a perfect system, these would be the same number, but my perception is that mines, like meatpacking plants and steel mills, are typically in places where the labor force doesn't have a lot of options, this brings in the problem of imperfect labor competition. And so the costs borne may not be aligned.
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"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin
"Don't you see the rest of the country looks upon New York like we're left-wing, communist, Jewish, homosexual pornographers? I think of us that way sometimes and I live here." - Alvy Singer, "Annie Hall"
Re: The West Virginia Mine Disaster. [vitus979]
[ In reply to ]
I heard on Hannity (take it for what that means to you) that this particular mining site had been under intense scrutiny from the mining safety agency (forget the exact name) and had a seriously high number of infractions recently.
As an aside, one of my best friends from college, her father was in an extremely serious mining accident when she was about 8. I believe he actually now works for the mining safety agency I mentioned above. I've spoken to him about it a few times and while he said he loved mining, he never felt it to be a very safe job (as in, he would never allow a child to do it).
As an aside, one of my best friends from college, her father was in an extremely serious mining accident when she was about 8. I believe he actually now works for the mining safety agency I mentioned above. I've spoken to him about it a few times and while he said he loved mining, he never felt it to be a very safe job (as in, he would never allow a child to do it).
Re: The West Virginia Mine Disaster. [vitus979]
[ In reply to ]
An article on what I was referencing:
Reports show Sago Mine had past troubles
By Tom Foreman
CNN Washington Bureau
(CNN) -- Federal reports show the number of safety violations at the Sago Mine rose rapidly over the past two years, and in 2005 inspectors called 96 of them "serious and substantial."
Add reports of 11 roof collapses in the past six months, and a former top federal official for mine safety says any mine operator should see a red flag.
"That's a signal to you that says, 'You better do something at this workplace, before something bad happens,' " Davitt McAteer said.
McAteer, now a vice president at Wheeling Jesuit University in West Virginia, has spent most of the past 40 years involved with mine safety issues, even helping to shape many of the national policies on this front. He argues that mining is a uniquely complex, demanding and potentially dangerous profession.
"As opposed to other industries," he says, "in mining, small problems mount up quickly and catastrophically."
The Sago Mine accident comes on the heels of seismic shifts in the mining business. In the 1990's, with coal prices low, industry experts said many small mines cut back production, went bankrupt or shut down. In the case of Sago, the industry slump opened the door for billionaire investor Wilbur Ross.
Ross made headlines and a fortune buying up failing steel companies in the past, and now his International Coal Group is doing the same thing in the mining trade.
By purchasing financially wounded companies, Ross's relatively new ICG has taken control of a substantial portion of the nation's coal reserves. ICG took over Sago only in mid November, and company officials say they have already corrected many of the safety problems cited in past reports.
In the tense hours of waiting and searching, however, that was not a subject company executives wanted to discuss.
"We're not going to get into the violation history or finger pointing," said Ben Hatfield, CEO of International Coal Group. "That's in no one's interest at this point."
Federal safety records indicate the coal business has grown safer in recent years. Ten years ago, coal mines were claiming around 45 lives every year. Now the numbers hover around half that amount.
Injuries are down, too, even as production rises. Coal industry analysts say better technology has helped make the work safer; so have more concerted efforts throughout the industry to emphasize safety.
The National Mining Association represents many mining companies, although not the International Coal Group, and officials at the mining association say the Sago safety citations are not particularly unusual.
"When I looked at it generally," the association's Bruce Watzman said, "I didn't see anything that caught my attention as being so out of the ordinary. Some were paperwork errors, some reporting errors; (there were) a lot of violations but many were not significant to really impact miners' safety."
Watzman argues that while every safety violation should be taken seriously, many may involve lower level problems that could not reasonably be expected to present an imminent danger.
Davitt McAteer says it is too early to know who, if anyone, should bear responsibility in this accident. But he has a word of caution about the booming coal trade in general, and any company that might seek too much gold too fast from the black rock.
"We've seen historically, the mine companies that operate on the margins and try to push all the costs down and the (profit) margins up in the short run tend to have tremendous safety problems."
CNN's Jim Spellman contributed to this report.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/04/mine.safety
Reports show Sago Mine had past troubles
By Tom Foreman
CNN Washington Bureau
(CNN) -- Federal reports show the number of safety violations at the Sago Mine rose rapidly over the past two years, and in 2005 inspectors called 96 of them "serious and substantial."
Add reports of 11 roof collapses in the past six months, and a former top federal official for mine safety says any mine operator should see a red flag.
"That's a signal to you that says, 'You better do something at this workplace, before something bad happens,' " Davitt McAteer said.
McAteer, now a vice president at Wheeling Jesuit University in West Virginia, has spent most of the past 40 years involved with mine safety issues, even helping to shape many of the national policies on this front. He argues that mining is a uniquely complex, demanding and potentially dangerous profession.
"As opposed to other industries," he says, "in mining, small problems mount up quickly and catastrophically."
The Sago Mine accident comes on the heels of seismic shifts in the mining business. In the 1990's, with coal prices low, industry experts said many small mines cut back production, went bankrupt or shut down. In the case of Sago, the industry slump opened the door for billionaire investor Wilbur Ross.
Ross made headlines and a fortune buying up failing steel companies in the past, and now his International Coal Group is doing the same thing in the mining trade.
By purchasing financially wounded companies, Ross's relatively new ICG has taken control of a substantial portion of the nation's coal reserves. ICG took over Sago only in mid November, and company officials say they have already corrected many of the safety problems cited in past reports.
In the tense hours of waiting and searching, however, that was not a subject company executives wanted to discuss.
"We're not going to get into the violation history or finger pointing," said Ben Hatfield, CEO of International Coal Group. "That's in no one's interest at this point."
Federal safety records indicate the coal business has grown safer in recent years. Ten years ago, coal mines were claiming around 45 lives every year. Now the numbers hover around half that amount.
Injuries are down, too, even as production rises. Coal industry analysts say better technology has helped make the work safer; so have more concerted efforts throughout the industry to emphasize safety.
The National Mining Association represents many mining companies, although not the International Coal Group, and officials at the mining association say the Sago safety citations are not particularly unusual.
"When I looked at it generally," the association's Bruce Watzman said, "I didn't see anything that caught my attention as being so out of the ordinary. Some were paperwork errors, some reporting errors; (there were) a lot of violations but many were not significant to really impact miners' safety."
Watzman argues that while every safety violation should be taken seriously, many may involve lower level problems that could not reasonably be expected to present an imminent danger.
Davitt McAteer says it is too early to know who, if anyone, should bear responsibility in this accident. But he has a word of caution about the booming coal trade in general, and any company that might seek too much gold too fast from the black rock.
"We've seen historically, the mine companies that operate on the margins and try to push all the costs down and the (profit) margins up in the short run tend to have tremendous safety problems."
CNN's Jim Spellman contributed to this report.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/04/mine.safety
Re: The West Virginia Mine Disaster. [Tridiot]
[ In reply to ]
I heard today that farming was MUCH more dangerous than mining, and the yearly death toll was MUCH higher in farming accidents...where do we ban farms and sue someone and place blame?
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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
Re: The West Virginia Mine Disaster. [Record10Carbon]
[ In reply to ]
If you want all the 2004 fatality statistics go here:
http://stats.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cftb0196.pdf
http://stats.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cftb0196.pdf
Re: The West Virginia Mine Disaster. [Casey]
[ In reply to ]
Out of curiosity, why is this a "liberal" media coverage. I have seen coverage on every newspaper and every radio station in the country so how do you delineate between "liberal" and "conservative."
Would you expect them to ignore this accident to stay "fair and balanced" or ignore the accident and just show coverage from a coal mine in Tennessee where nothing happened?
I don't know about "liberal" or "conservative" view points but its interesting that out of 250 major newspapers across the country, one-half of them had a headline saying that the miners were alive. It is interesting to note that not one major radio morning news program in the country was reporting that they were alive. This might be one of the reasons that more Americans get their morning news from the radio than from any other source.
Would you expect them to ignore this accident to stay "fair and balanced" or ignore the accident and just show coverage from a coal mine in Tennessee where nothing happened?
I don't know about "liberal" or "conservative" view points but its interesting that out of 250 major newspapers across the country, one-half of them had a headline saying that the miners were alive. It is interesting to note that not one major radio morning news program in the country was reporting that they were alive. This might be one of the reasons that more Americans get their morning news from the radio than from any other source.
Re: The West Virginia Mine Disaster. [armytriguy]
[ In reply to ]
I don't know if you're trying to be deliberately obtuse or just don't know what kind of point you're trying to make, but the fact of the matter was that the "news" from somewhere before midnight until about 3:15 AM was that they were found alive, which was obviously a misapprehension by authorities on the scene. Now as morning newspapers have a press deadline they have to meet in order to print, deliver, etc., this was the story until 3:15 AM. Obviously this was found to be inaccurate. Morning radio shows have the luxury of walking in off the street and reading CNN.com and finding out that the facts had changed between press time and the morning.
Is this too complicated to understand?
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"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin
"Don't you see the rest of the country looks upon New York like we're left-wing, communist, Jewish, homosexual pornographers? I think of us that way sometimes and I live here." - Alvy Singer, "Annie Hall"
Re: The West Virginia Mine Disaster. [trio_jeepy]
[ In reply to ]
I don't know if you're trying to be deliberately obtuse or just don't know what kind of point you're trying to make, but the fact of the matter was that the "news" from somewhere before midnight until about 3:15 AM was that they were found alive, which was obviously a misapprehension by authorities on the scene. Now as morning newspapers have a press deadline they have to meet in order to print, deliver, etc., this was the story until 3:15 AM. Obviously this was found to be inaccurate. Morning radio shows have the luxury of walking in off the street and reading CNN.com and finding out that the facts had changed between press time and the morning.
Is this too complicated to understand?
Not complicated at all. The point being that 1/2 of the 250 major newspapers (thats 125 by the way) DID NOT run with the headline. Why do you think that is? Maybe, just maybe, the editors insisted on following journalism 101 and waited to confirm the reports and validate the source. As for the other 1/2 who knows. My post was worded to say I don't know if there was "liberal" or "conservative" leanings to the stories.
Sheesh. Give it break. I think you are the one being obtuse.
Is this too complicated to understand?
Not complicated at all. The point being that 1/2 of the 250 major newspapers (thats 125 by the way) DID NOT run with the headline. Why do you think that is? Maybe, just maybe, the editors insisted on following journalism 101 and waited to confirm the reports and validate the source. As for the other 1/2 who knows. My post was worded to say I don't know if there was "liberal" or "conservative" leanings to the stories.
Sheesh. Give it break. I think you are the one being obtuse.
Re: The West Virginia Mine Disaster. [armytriguy]
[ In reply to ]
I would guess it has more to do with printing deadlines than anything. They mostly are just reprinting Associated Press articles or the such.
Re: The West Virginia Mine Disaster. [armytriguy]
[ In reply to ]
And just out of curiosity, were those 125 correct papers (that's half of 250) perhaps leaning towards the western time zones, giving them up to 3 additional hours to get the story before print deadline?
Perhaps you should consider the circumstances before opining on journalistic ethics/skills. Not that I'm defending the New York Post, one of those caught by this, but this seems to me much more a trap story than some sort of indictment of print journalism overall. And by the way, I'm pretty sure most if not all radio stations rely on their news from AP, Reuters, and other primary news sources, so that's not exactly a fair comparison.
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"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin
"Don't you see the rest of the country looks upon New York like we're left-wing, communist, Jewish, homosexual pornographers? I think of us that way sometimes and I live here." - Alvy Singer, "Annie Hall"
Perhaps you should consider the circumstances before opining on journalistic ethics/skills. Not that I'm defending the New York Post, one of those caught by this, but this seems to me much more a trap story than some sort of indictment of print journalism overall. And by the way, I'm pretty sure most if not all radio stations rely on their news from AP, Reuters, and other primary news sources, so that's not exactly a fair comparison.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin
"Don't you see the rest of the country looks upon New York like we're left-wing, communist, Jewish, homosexual pornographers? I think of us that way sometimes and I live here." - Alvy Singer, "Annie Hall"
Re: The West Virginia Mine Disaster. [vitus979]
[ In reply to ]
I'm guessing that a major factor in the reduction in mining deaths/accidents has to do with the shift away from underground operations to mountain top removal. Many fewer people under the earth, where it is a lot more dangerous.
The guy from that Jesuit college (Davitt something-or-other) mentioned on NPR this morning that while the tragedy of the 12 deaths in WV was 24/7 news, last week in China something like 270 miners died in three accidents, and nary a word was heard about it. China has far more miners underground at any time than does the US.
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"Go yell at an M&M"
Not complicated at all. The point being that 1/2 of the 250 major newspapers (thats 125 by the way) DID NOT run with the headline. Why do you think that is?
I'm not trying to pardon the press for their errors but from their point of view, they received confirmation from families and the governor himself. Reports out this morning mention that someone entered the church and announced that 12 of the miners were alive. The Governor looked at some of the mine executives and asked if this was confirmed and they said "no".
The governor then left the church to find someone to corroborate the news and a lady approached him and asked point blank if 12 were alive and he said "yes." The families then repeated that to the press so they had 2 of what you would probably assume to be credible sources. From the newspapers point of view, I would have run the story also so I don't think you can blame them at all.
Another report mentions there was miscommunication due to the fact that the rescuers in the mine were wearing gas masks and were misheard to say the 12 were alive when they actually said the "12 were not alive."
Overall, a difficult situation arose because people were desperately wanting a good outcome. I feel badly for everyone involved and know it was not intentional. From all I have read, the big mistake that was made is when the officials were unable to confirm the deaths, they should have announced that instead of allowing the people celebrate the "good news" for over 2 hours.
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You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008
Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008
Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008
I'm not trying to pardon the press for their errors but from their point of view, they received confirmation from families and the governor himself. Reports out this morning mention that someone entered the church and announced that 12 of the miners were alive. The Governor looked at some of the mine executives and asked if this was confirmed and they said "no".
The governor then left the church to find someone to corroborate the news and a lady approached him and asked point blank if 12 were alive and he said "yes." The families then repeated that to the press so they had 2 of what you would probably assume to be credible sources. From the newspapers point of view, I would have run the story also so I don't think you can blame them at all.
Another report mentions there was miscommunication due to the fact that the rescuers in the mine were wearing gas masks and were misheard to say the 12 were alive when they actually said the "12 were not alive."
Overall, a difficult situation arose because people were desperately wanting a good outcome. I feel badly for everyone involved and know it was not intentional. From all I have read, the big mistake that was made is when the officials were unable to confirm the deaths, they should have announced that instead of allowing the people celebrate the "good news" for over 2 hours.
__________________________________________________
You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008
Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008
Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008