"I was questioning whether there are actually situations where the student was smart enough to get into the elites, but the parents wouldn't let them go there b/c they weren't conservative enough? "

I'm not sure why this is the question. From your original post, it looked like this particular guy or his organization had their own list of conservative schools. How do you get from there to parents making that decision for their kids?

To answer your question, I'm sure there are parents who won't allow their kids to go to particular schools, again, for a wide variety of reasons. Why would it surprise you to find that the prevalent ideology of the school might be one of those reasons?

"Nothing against the Christian/conservative colleges"

Really? because your original post was pretty insulting towards them.

"Indoctrination is not about free thought"

And a school with a religious studies based curriculum is not necessarily about indoctrination.

"but please don't try and pretend that these are academically elite schools."

Ok, except some of them are very good academic schools. However, they are generally not going to be the top tier business or medical schools because, surprise surprise, they are focussed elsewhere. As I said before, there are schools with particularly good music programs that wouldn't be considered among the "elite" colleges. There are schools with particularly good sports programs. There are schools with particularly good religious studies programs. Why does religion necessarily mean RW to you?

"I'm sure there may be some bright students at Indiana Wesleyan, or even Liberty U.; however please don't pretend that these schools are turning out rocket scientists in any great #"

Well since that isn't their goal, I don't think anyone is pretending that. That doesn't mean their graduates are less prepared to enter the world or to be succesful in their chosen career fields. It certainly doesn't mean they are destined for the "feed store" or McDonalds. Exactly how wide a world view do you attribute to rocket scientists, by the way? Seems to me that most of the elite science types in college spent a lot of time in the lab, not out learning about the world.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

"The university system as we know it is actually a bit more recent- dates back to medieval Europe."

That is true but the system of education was still based upon the earlier classical thinking. In a lot of the intellectual thought, especially in the Renaissance, was heavily influenced by the Greeks. Towards the end of the Middle Ages much of the writings were heavily steeped in the rhetorical style and often basing their ideas on new translations of Greek writings. By the 16th centuries many letters coming out of the Papacy often referenced the "ancients" - meaning the Greeks- as a way as a proper model for thought, music, math, rhetoric, astronomy, and education. Read just about any major work of the Renaissance and you will almost always see some sort of name dropping of Aristotle and Plato as either a validation or model. A good chunk of the theoretical works of the Renaissance are written as a "dialog" similar in style to classical style. I think many people underestimate the influence the Greeks had even in the Papacy.

Faculty members serve less as lecturers and more as facilitators using the Socratic method.


Perhaps interesting (perhaps not), there are some public schools trying this approach. The idea is to get students to be the focus and not the teacher. In other words, students are the active participants rather than passive note-takers. I know at our school, and in our EdAdmin master's classes, the foucs is turning towards having student-centered classes and less "teacher talking all the time" stuff. Mostly out of necessity for ADD and hyperactive kids that don't want to sit there and listen for 50 unimpeded minutes. Geez, where was this approach when I was in 3rd grade and couldn't sit still?

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

"...the foucs is turning towards having student-centered classes and less "teacher talking all the time" stuff. Mostly out of necessity for ADD and hyperactive kids that don't want to sit there and listen for 50 unimpeded minutes. Geez, where was this approach when I was in 3rd grade and couldn't sit still? "



My feeling is that if a student can't sit still for an hour and take notes they probably shouldn't be in college...period. If a student can't focus for an hour then I don't care if its at a technical college, community college, Ivy League school, or a religious school - at that point they need to either go back to high school or get some professional help. While everyone should have the opportunity to go to college, it is important to remember that this opportunity assumes that the student has already acquired the necessary skills, if they haven't, then they need to go back to high school. My problem with the concept of a conservative or liberal university is that the focus is not on teaching the student how to think but to further a social agenda.

I'm talking about high schoolers. namely the schools that are trying it are traditionally low-income, non-college track students. According to the recent research it's working rather well for them (not surprisingly, when you get more people involved, you have fewer behavior problems -- out of boredom and disinterest -- as well). I figured when I mentioned "public schools", it was assumed that I was referring to high school. My error in not being clear. Perhaps I should not have introduced an aspect of high school education in a thread focused on college.

I agree with your sentiments regarding college students. It's rather difficult to attend college without being able to sit and take notes from lecture. The exception would be the high level reader that'll just make their own notes from their reading.

My feeling is that if a student can't sit still for an hour and take notes they probably shouldn't be in college...period.

You bring up a good point. It's been my observation, from teaching "college prep" and "non-college prep" classes, that in most cases, the difference between the two students has little to do with intelligence and more with levels of maturity, organization (I could tell some horror stories), etc. We had quite a bit of conversation recently at department meetings about suppossed low level kids that scored higher (significantly higher) on ACT exams than did some of the "college prep" students.

The challenge to me (as a teacher) is to get these "college smart" kids to learn/display the college level skills. I likely should have withheld my comments for a different thread ... but Vitus's comments on a "Socratic classroom" had me impulse post something that was recently in my brain. It's all Vitus's fault.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

I don't dispute that most professors are liberal in their political views, but rarely does this transfer down to the classes.

That's not correct. Many liberal professors transfer their political views down to their students and impose their beliefs into their teachings.

Speaking for myself, some 15 years out of undergrad, I was (thankfully) willfully ignorant of most political thought & trends of the day...

I see nothing has changed in 15 years...You're still ignorant (willfully or not) of the politics of the day.

I'm sure there may be some bright students at Indiana Wesleyan, or even Liberty U.; however please don't pretend that these schools are turning out rocket scientists in any great # (Hannity or Ralph Reed Jr.'s maybe).

Uh, mopey...Indiana Wesleyan and Liberty don't have rocket science programs...hence the reason they aren't turning out any...

I think many people underestimate the influence the Greeks had even in the Papacy.

Not me. I might even go so far as to say you've underestimated the influence the ancients and their philosophies had well before the Renaissance. ;)

Still, our university system can be traced back directly to Medieval Europe. That isn't to say that before then, there was no learning, of course. Just that the university system as we know it didn't exist before that.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I was questioning whether there are actually situations where the student was smart enough to get into the elites, but the parents wouldn't let them go there b/c they weren't conservative enough?

Quite possibly, yes. It isn't so much that I wouldn't let my kid go to one of the elites because it wasn't conservative enough. I might not let my kid go to one of the elites if I thought it was too liberally biased to provide a truly good education, and also a healthy atmosphere in which to shape a young adult.

I don't dispute that most professors are liberal in their political views, but rarely does this transfer down to the classes.

Laughable.

but please don't try and pretend that these are academically elite schools.

Define "academically elite." I would be quite confident that the education one can receive at Thomas Aquinas College is at least the equal of the education one can receive at any of the Ivy League schools. Does it look as impressive on a resume? Probably not.

Indoctrination is not about free thought. And if parents are forcing this on their kids, I believe they are doing great harm b/c of a narrow view of the world.

I love how a conservative school is indoctrinating kids into a narrow view of the world, whereas a liberal school is not.

however please don't pretend that these schools are turning out rocket scientists in any great #

Well, Thomas Aquinas College has about 360 students, so I guess they don't produce "great numbers" of rocket scientists. But about half of them go on to advanced degrees, like mt friend's brother, the doctor. Here's a partial list of some of the programs they've gone on to, it seems not too shabby:

Archeology: University of Chicago

Architecture:
University of Colorado
University of Notre Dame

Art History:
Emory University Avian

Biology: University of California, Davis

Biology: University of California, Los Angeles

Business Administration: University of Washington

Business Management:
University of California, Los Angeles
University of Chicago

Classics:
Boston College
Bryn Mawr College
Cornell University
University of Chicago
University of Dallas
Villanova University

Computer Science:
California State University, Northridge
University of San Diego
University of Wisconsin

Economics:
Claremont Graduate University
London School of Economics and Political Science

Engineering: Georgia Institute of Technology

English:
University of Notre Dame
University of California, Los Angeles

Exegesis:
Pontificum Institutum Biblicum de Urbe (The Biblicum), Rome

Government: Claremont Graduate School

History and Philosophy of Science:
Indiana University
University of Notre Dame History of Science: Indiana University
Oklahoma University
Princeton University
University of California, Davis
University of Toronto
University of Wisconsin International Affairs: Columbia University School of International Affairs

Law:
Ave Maria School of Law
Duke University
George Mason University
Harvard University
John Marshall School of Law
Marquette University
Pepperdine University
St. John's University, New York
St. Louis University
Santa Clara University
Stanford University
Suffolk University
University of California, Berkeley (Boalt Hall)
University of California, Davis
University of California, Hastings College of Law
University of Chicago
University of Michigan
University of Missouri at Kansas City
University of Montana
University of Notre Dame
University of the Pacific
University of San Francisco
University of Southern California
University of Virginia
University of Washington
University of Wyoming
Villanova University
Willamette University
William Mitchell College of Law

Literature: University of Dallas

Mathematics:
Brown University
Claremont Graduate University
Indiana University
State University of New York, Binghamton
University of California, Los Angeles
University of Massachusetts

Medicine:
Creighton University School of Medicine
Georgetown University
Hahnemann University
Indiana University
Loyola University, Chicago
Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine
St. Louis University
University of California, Davis
University of California, Los Angeles
University of Nevada
Washington University, St. Louis Nursing: University of Nevada

Philosophy:
Boston College
Catholic University of America
Claremont Graduate University
International Theological Institute, Austria
Pontifical Institute for Medieval Studies, University of Toronto
Princeton University
University of Dallas
University of Notre Dame (Medieval Institute)
Physics: University of Wisconsin
Washington State University

Political Science:
Catholic University of America
University of Chicago
University of Dallas Psychology: Indiana University Public Relations: University of Notre Dame Social Science: University of Chicago

Theology:
Harvard Divinity School, Harvard University
Pontifica Universita S. Tommaso D'Aquino (The Angelicum), Rome
University of Toronto
The Dominican School of Philosophy & Theology, Graduate Theological Union, Berkeley

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Which of the "great books" do you figure discusses object-oriented programming? Which one of the "great books" do you think discusses the Vietnam era?

When I worked at Boeing, I had the opportunity to see the college computer science textbooks of a co-worker who graduated from Penn State. I was fascinated to see pretty much the same set of books I had used at Cornell. The difference was that many of the authors of those textbooks were my professors. Who had the better education in these subjects, if you had to guess?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Which of the "great books" do you figure discusses object-oriented programming?

I figure none of them do. I figure it isn't part of the curriculum. I also figure one can get a fine education even without learning object-oriented programming. Here's the full curriculum from Thomas Aquinas College. If you really think it doesn't represent a quality education, we'll have to agree to disagree. I grant that it isn't a vocational program, per se, but of course, that's not the point.

Freshman Year Seminar

Homer Iliad, Odyssey
Plato Ion, Republic, Symposium
Aeschylus Agamemnon, Choephoroe, Eumenides
Sophocles Oedipus Rex, Oedipus at Colonus, Antigone
Herodotus Histories
Aristotle Poetics, Rhetoric
Plutarch Lives (Lycurgus, Pericles, Alcibiades, Aristides, Alexander)
Euripides Hippolytus
Thucydides History of the Peloponnesian War
Aristophanes The Birds, The Clouds

Language

Wheelock Latin: An Introductory Course Based on Ancient Authors
Nesfield Aids to the Study and Composition of English

Mathematics

Euclid Elements

Laboratory

Aristotle Parts of Animals
DeKoninck The Lifeless World of Biology
Fabre Souvenirs Entomologiques
Galen On the Natural Faculties
Harvey On the Motion of the Heart and Blood, On Animal Generation
Linnaeus Systema Naturae
Pascal On the Equilibrium of Liquids
Archimedes On Floating Bodies
Mendel Plant Hybridization various authors Scientific papers of Driesch, Gould, Marler, Tinbergen, Goethe, Virchow, von Frisch, et alia Measurements Manual

Philosophy

Plato Meno, Protagoras, Gorgias, Apology, Crito, Phaedo
Porphyry On the Predicaments (Isagoge)
Aristotle Categories, On Interpretation, Prior Analytics, Posterior Analytics, Topics
St. Thomas Aquinas Proem to the Posterior Analytics

Theology
The Holy Bible

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Sophomore Year Seminar

Vergil Aeneid
Lucretius On the Nature of Things
Cicero Offices
Livy Ab Urbe Conditia
Plutarch Lives(Marcellus, Tiberius & Caius Gracchus, Marius, Sylla, Caesar, Cato the Younger, Brutus) Tacitus Annals
Epictetus Manual
St. Augustine Confessions, On the Teacher
Boethius Consolation of Philosophy
Dante Divine Comedy
Chaucer Canterbury Tales
Spenser Faerie Queen
St. Thomas Aquinas On the Teacher

Language

Wheelock Latin: An Introductory Course Based on Ancient Authors
Martin of Denmark Tractus De Modis Significandi
Horace, Cicero Selections
St. Thomas Aquinas Selections, Canon of the Mass

Mathematics

Plato Timaeus
Ptolemy Almagest
Copernicus Revolutions of the Heavenly Spheres
Apollonius On Conic Sections
Kepler Epitome of Copernican Astronomy, Astronomia Nova
Archimedes On Conoids and Spheroids

Laboratory

Aristotle On Generation and Corruption
St. Thomas Aquinas On the Principles of Nature,On the Combination of the Elements
Lavoisier Elements of Chemistry
Avogadro Masses and Proportions of Elementary Molecules
Dalton Proportion of Gases in the Atmosphere
Gay-Lussac Combination of Gaseous Substances
Pascal Treatise on the Weight of the Mass of the Air various authors Scientific papers of Berthollet, Couper, Lavoisier, Mendeleev, Richter, Wollaston, Cannizzaro, et alia Atomic Theory Manual



Philosophy

Pre-Socratic Philosophers Fragments
Aristotle Physics, On the Soul

Theology

St. Augustine On Christian Doctrine,On the Spirit and the Letter, On Nature and Grace, On the Gift of Perseverance, On the Predestination of the Saints, City of God
St. Athanasius On the Incarnation
Gaunilo On Behalf of the Fool
St. Anselm Proslogion, Reply to Gaunilo
St. John Damascene An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith

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Junior Year Seminar

Cervantes Don Quixote
St. Thomas Aquinas On Kingship, Summa Theologiae
Machiavelli The Prince, Discourses
Bacon The Great Instauration, Novum Organum
Shakespeare Julius Caesar, King Richard the Second, King Henry the Fourth: Part One, Hamlet, King Lear, Othello, Macbeth, Twelfth Night, The Tempest, Sonnets
Montaigne Essays
Descartes Discourse on Method, Meditations, Rules for the Direction of the Mind
Pascal Pensées
Hobbes Leviathan
Locke Essay Concerning Human Understanding, Second Essay on Civil Government
Berkeley Treatise Concerning Human Understanding
Hume An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding
Swift Gulliver's Travels
Milton Paradise Lost
Gibbon Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire
Corneille Le Cid
Racine Phaedre
Rousseau Social Contract, Discourse on the Origin of Inequality
Spinoza Theologico-Political Treatise
various authors Articles of Confederation Declaration of Independence U.S. Constitution
Hamilton, Madison, Jay Federalist Papers
Smith Wealth of Nations
Kant Prolegomena to Any Future Metaphysics, Critique of Pure Reason, Groundwork for the Metaphysics of Morals
Leibniz Discourse on Metaphysics

Music

Plato Timaeus
Boethius On Music
Mozart Sonatas
Gustin Tonality

Mathematics

Viete Standard Enumeration of Geometric Results, Introduction to the Analytic Art
Descartes Geometry
Archimedes Quadrature of the Parabola
Griffin Mathematical Analysis various authors Mathematical works of Hippocrates, Archimedes, Cavalieri, Pascal, Leibniz, Bernoulli, Newton, Berkeley, Bolzano, et alia

Laboratory

Descartes Principles of Philosophy
Galileo Two New Sciences
Newton Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy

Philosophy



Aristotle Nicom. Ethics
Politics

Theology

St. Thomas Aquinas
Summa Theologiae:
On Sacred Doctrine
On God
On Law

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Senior Year Seminar

Tolstoy War and Peace
Goethe Faust
Hegel Phenomenology of Mind, Philosophy of History
Flaubert Three Tales
Feuerbach Essence of Christianity
J. S. Mill Utilitarianism
Marx Capital, Communist Manifesto, Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts, German Ideology
Melville Billy Budd
Willa Cather My Antonia
Engels Quantity and Quality, Negation of the Negation
Darwin Origin of Species
Nietzsche Beyond Good and Evil, Use and Abuse of History
Twain Huckleberry Finn
Austen Emma
Freud General Introduction to Psychoanalysis
Jung Analytical Psychology
Newman Development of Christian Doctrine
Kierkegaard Fear and Trembling, Philosophical Fragments
Ibsen A Doll's House
Dostoyevski Brothers Karamazov
Eliot Ash Wednesday, Journey of the Magi, The Waste Land
St. Pius X Pascendi Dominici Gregis
Leo XIII Aeterni Patris, Rerum Novarum
Pius XI Quadragesimo Anno
Pius XII Humani Generis Vatican II Lumen Gentium
Plato Phaedrus
Vico The New Science
Tocqueville Democracy in America, The Old Regime and the French Revolution
Husserl The Idea of Phenomenology
Lincoln and Douglas Debates
Flannery O'Connor A Good Man is Hard to Find, The Enduring Chill
St. Thomas Aquinas The Division and Method of the Sciences

Mathematics

Pascal Generation of Conic Sections
Taylor Integral Calculus
Dedekind Essay on the Theory of Numbers
Lobachevski Geometrical Researches on the Theory of Parallels

Laboratory

Einstein Relativity: The Special and General Theory
Huygens Treatise on Light
Newton Optiks
Maxwell A Treatise on Electricity and Magnetism
Gilbert De Magnete
Ampere Papers
various authors Mechanics, Waves, and Optics Manual
Electricity and Magnetism Manual

Philosophy

Aristotle Physics, Metaphysics
St. Thomas Aquinas On Being and Essence

Theology

St. Thomas Aquinas Summa Theologiae: On the Trinity, On the Sacraments, On the Passion of Christ

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

It's a very interesting program to be sure, but I'm a little unclear how your doctor friend managed to fulfil his medical school pre-requisites there.

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Not being up on the requirements for medical school, I couldn't say. But it seems he wasn't the only one:

Medicine:
Creighton University School of Medicine
Georgetown University
Hahnemann University
Indiana University
Loyola University, Chicago
Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine
St. Louis University
University of California, Davis
University of California, Los Angeles
University of Nevada
Washington University, St. Louis

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

True, though I suspect that those people might have also taken post-bac courses elsewhere to meet requirements (I can guarantee you that the curriculum doesn't meet requirements for today's med schools, though I dont know about osteopathic schools).



Suffice it to say that the Acquinas curriculum offers a pretty intensive and original liberal arts education but by itself isn't a good choice for preparation for a career in the hard sciences.

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