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Re: The UCI's new anti-motor doping X-ray machine: it's massive! [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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Very trivial. In fact, I imagine some advanced high schooler has already presented it their local science fair.

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Re: The UCI's new anti-motor doping X-ray machine: it's massive! [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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Ai_1 wrote:
Timtek wrote:
The first thing I thought when I saw this was "Really? No one could design a smaller & simpler unit than that for checking for motors?"

Does this mean the smaller, quicker iPad method of testing has been insufficient?



https://www.youtube.com/...-iRwwquk7v0&t=9s

It's just an x-ray in a box big enough to fit a bike. I'm sure the box is there simply to avoid any issues with radiation. It's not like it's hugely complex. How would you do it?

Well I was sold on the iPad gadget until yesterday.

I'm not an engineer by any means but I think a phone or tablet accessory or software-based solution would probably be ideal. Point is, there's a lot of innovation in the world right now and I'm convinced an enterprising person could have come up with a more efficient and cost-effective solution. R. Chung came up with one idea and I expect that took him all of 30 seconds to dream up.

Remember, these should be at every single sanctioned event. Cycling and triathlon. Because as stupid as it is, people are going to try to cheat.

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Madison photographer Timothy Hughes | Instagram
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Re: The UCI's new anti-motor doping X-ray machine: it's massive! [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:
So, what's the complaint?

I'd rather run a bike thru that than tear down a bike to prove it.

I think a good deterrent would be to have manufacturers of bikes have some kind of carbon layup that makes it impossible to implement in the frame. Fill in that area where the motor would go. And if you try to remove that material in that area to make room, the design is such that it would destroy the frame.

This would create issues for Di2 batteries but they could always implement the Di2 battery in the stem instead or something.

knowing life manufactures were on it... surly it was not joe blow in his basement...
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Re: The UCI's new anti-motor doping X-ray machine: it's massive! [AlyraD] [ In reply to ]
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AlyraD wrote:
Very trivial. In fact, I imagine some advanced high schooler has already presented it their local science fair.
So you haven't a clue what you're talking about then - Got it.
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Re: The UCI's new anti-motor doping X-ray machine: it's massive! [Timtek] [ In reply to ]
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Timtek wrote:
Ai_1 wrote:
Timtek wrote:
The first thing I thought when I saw this was "Really? No one could design a smaller & simpler unit than that for checking for motors?"

Does this mean the smaller, quicker iPad method of testing has been insufficient?



https://www.youtube.com/...-iRwwquk7v0&t=9s

It's just an x-ray in a box big enough to fit a bike. I'm sure the box is there simply to avoid any issues with radiation. It's not like it's hugely complex. How would you do it?

Well I was sold on the iPad gadget until yesterday.

I'm not an engineer by any means but I think a phone or tablet accessory or software-based solution would probably be ideal. Point is, there's a lot of innovation in the world right now and I'm convinced an enterprising person could have come up with a more efficient and cost-effective solution. R. Chung came up with one idea and I expect that took him all of 30 seconds to dream up.

Remember, these should be at every single sanctioned event. Cycling and triathlon. Because as stupid as it is, people are going to try to cheat.
An iPad doesn't do x-ray. Thermal imaging or magnetic field checks or whatever are feasible cheaper practicel alternatives but are defeatable. At the pro level an x-ray is a far more sensible approach.
If the UCI went with a half assed approach they'd be criticised even more.
This is perfectly reasonable for grand tours or the like.
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Re: The UCI's new anti-motor doping X-ray machine: it's massive! [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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Ai_1 wrote:
An iPad doesn't do x-ray. Thermal imaging or magnetic field checks or whatever are feasible cheaper practicel alternatives but are defeatable. At the pro level an x-ray is a far more sensible approach. If the UCI went with a half assed approach they'd be criticised even more.
This is perfectly reasonable for grand tours or the like.

According to their website "...the UCI will implement a range of measures that encompasses all the detection methods currently available. In addition to the magnetic scanning tablets and thermal imaging cameras already in use, the UCI has procured a mobile x-ray unit specially designed for the fight against technological fraud."

So they own one of these units and will continue to use the tablets and thermal imaging cameras. It's just my opinion that they should offer a grant to come up with additional crowdsourced solutions. Because if the X-ray machine is the only foolproof detection device that leaves hundreds or thousands of races without a solution. Again, I don't claim to be an engineer or scientist but I know when solutions are impractical. Maybe I'll be proven wrong... in 5 years if they are still using the X-ray wagon at races I guess I'll eat my words.

-------------------
Madison photographer Timothy Hughes | Instagram
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Re: The UCI's new anti-motor doping X-ray machine: it's massive! [Timtek] [ In reply to ]
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Timtek wrote:
Ai_1 wrote:
An iPad doesn't do x-ray. Thermal imaging or magnetic field checks or whatever are feasible cheaper practicel alternatives but are defeatable. At the pro level an x-ray is a far more sensible approach. If the UCI went with a half assed approach they'd be criticised even more.
This is perfectly reasonable for grand tours or the like.


According to their website "...the UCI will implement a range of measures that encompasses all the detection methods currently available. In addition to the magnetic scanning tablets and thermal imaging cameras already in use, the UCI has procured a mobile x-ray unit specially designed for the fight against technological fraud."

So they own one of these units and will continue to use the tablets and thermal imaging cameras. It's just my opinion that they should offer a grant to come up with additional crowdsourced solutions. Because if the X-ray machine is the only foolproof detection device that leaves hundreds or thousands of races without a solution. Again, I don't claim to be an engineer or scientist but I know when solutions are impractical. Maybe I'll be proven wrong... in 5 years if they are still using the X-ray wagon at races I guess I'll eat my words.

I'm no longer sure quite what your point is.
The UCI plan to use an x-ray to scan bikes because that's a practical way to do it. Too expensive for widespread use perhaps but perfectly reasonable for grand tours as I previously said. It is rather unreasonable to ask them to use non-existent technology because you'd like it to exist.
I think you misunderstand some things about "innovation". The VAST majority of new innovations are based on long known methods, perhaps developed and used in a novel way or sometimes just marketed differently. Both yourself and the previous poster who suggested someone just invent a suitable transparent frame material are under the illusion that revolutionary developments are just a matter of deciding to invent something. Try it!

I'm sure there are a few recent revolutionary developments, but I daresay far fewer than you think. Try naming a few and see!
Seriously. Name a few.

Edit:
Incidentally. X-ray photography has been around for over 120 years. Do you think they're still in routine use worldwide today because no-one thought it might be nice to have an easily portable, radiation free alternative? No, it's because alternatives are a little tricky to come by. Sure, an MRI, CAT scan or echo can do imaging too, but they have yheir own downsides.
Last edited by: Ai_1: Mar 22, 18 16:16
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Re: The UCI's new anti-motor doping X-ray machine: it's massive! [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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It’s kind of sad this is even a discussion. I know there is a lot of money at stake for teams, but cheating, in any form, says a lot about character.
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Re: The UCI's new anti-motor doping X-ray machine: it's massive! [thomtwg] [ In reply to ]
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thomtwg wrote:
It’s kind of sad this is even a discussion. I know there is a lot of money at stake for teams, but cheating, in any form, says a lot about character.
Perhaps. But personally, I think it says more about culture.
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Re: The UCI's new anti-motor doping X-ray machine: it's massive! [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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I think you are dead on. It’s not just in cycling.
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Re: The UCI's new anti-motor doping X-ray machine: it's massive! [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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Ai_1 wrote:
I'm no longer sure quite what your point is.
The UCI plan to use an x-ray to scan bikes because that's a practical way to do it. Too expensive for widespread use perhaps but perfectly reasonable for grand tours as I previously said. It is rather unreasonable to ask them to use non-existent technology because you'd like it to exist.
I think you misunderstand some things about "innovation". The VAST majority of new innovations are based on long known methods, perhaps developed and used in a novel way or sometimes just marketed differently. Both yourself and the previous poster who suggested someone just invent a suitable transparent frame material are under the illusion that revolutionary developments are just a matter of deciding to invent something. Try it!

I'm sure there are a few recent revolutionary developments, but I daresay far fewer than you think. Try naming a few and see!
Seriously. Name a few.

Edit:
Incidentally. X-ray photography has been around for over 120 years. Do you think they're still in routine use worldwide today because no-one thought it might be nice to have an easily portable, radiation free alternative? No, it's because alternatives are a little tricky to come by. Sure, an MRI, CAT scan or echo can do imaging too, but they have yheir own downsides.

My point is that they asked one, two, or maybe even five engineering companies to come up with a solution. If they used the crowdsourcing model like Starbucks is doing right now, that might include tens of millions of people. Reflecting on that, I'm sure this motor problem isn't something the UCI or pro cycling wants publicized at. All. So I suppose they needed to come up with the X-ray machine behind closed doors.

I said right from the get-go that I don't have a solution. But I do know the problem. And one X-ray machine is not adequate for the amount of races the UCI sanctions. The supply just doesn't meet the demand. I'll check back on my thread in five years to see if the X-ray wagon is still the go-to for checking bikes but if nothing else I hope they have at least one of them per country at that time!

-------------------
Madison photographer Timothy Hughes | Instagram
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Re: The UCI's new anti-motor doping X-ray machine: it's massive! [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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Totally agree.

You need a reasonable size enclosure to get a bike and x-ray source, power supply, and imaging system together

This looks like a relatively obvious approach.

and they can probably sell a handful to Homeland Security. Those people spend money on everything
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