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Good article about the car vs pedestrian issue in the U.S.
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Good article that really illustrates how far behind the U.S. is in pedestrian safety vs other developed nations when it comes to road design and transportation policy. The impetus for the article was the pedestrian that was struck and killed by an Autonomous Uber vehicle. Cycling isn’t mentioned at all, but the cultural response of not putting any responsibility on the drivers, autonomous or not, is an issue we’re all too familiar with around here.

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The failure of most local authorities to address the fact that Uber’s vehicle was speeding, or Arizona’s prioritization of cars, or the dangerous design of Tempe’s streets as factors in this crash has now reinforced the belief of many Americans that pedestrians who are killed are “distracted walkers” who deserve to be punished or ticketed or criminalized or slandered.

https://www.curbed.com/...ss-pedestrian-safety
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Re: Good article about the car vs pedestrian issue in the U.S. [slorunner] [ In reply to ]
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I fault drivers too. I'm not a gun advocate, but this is almost like blaming the guns instead of the people.

We've got people glued to cell phones in cars, reading books in cars, and they have almost no consequences for times they maim or kill. Sorry, if your sweet wife was doing something selfish in the car and kills someone she should get some hard time. Period. Cause that isn't so sweet.
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Re: Good article about the car vs pedestrian issue in the U.S. [slorunner] [ In reply to ]
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As long as a driver is not drunk, driving recklessly and does not flee the scene, the only thing they have to say is "I didn't see the pedestrian/bicyclist" and they will get off with a misdeameanor and maybe a few hundred dollar fine at most. The U.S. legal system absolutely treats pedestrians and bicyclists as nothing more than another road hazard.
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Re: Good article about the car vs pedestrian issue in the U.S. [slorunner] [ In reply to ]
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slorunner wrote:
Good article that really illustrates how far behind the U.S. is in pedestrian safety vs other developed nations when it comes to road design and transportation policy. The impetus for the article was the pedestrian that was struck and killed by an Autonomous Uber vehicle. Cycling isn’t mentioned at all, but the cultural response of not putting any responsibility on the drivers, autonomous or not, is an issue we’re all too familiar with around here.

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The failure of most local authorities to address the fact that Uber’s vehicle was speeding, or Arizona’s prioritization of cars, or the dangerous design of Tempe’s streets as factors in this crash has now reinforced the belief of many Americans that pedestrians who are killed are “distracted walkers” who deserve to be punished or ticketed or criminalized or slandered.


https://www.curbed.com/...ss-pedestrian-safety
From the article:
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If an autonomous vehicle is not several magnitudes better than a human driver at preventing the loss of human life, it cannot be on the road.
Why does an autonomous vehicle need to be several orders of magnitude safer than human drives. What's wrong with just being better?

The Uber accident seems like a poor example at this point until the investigation is complete.
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Re: Good article about the car vs pedestrian issue in the U.S. [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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https://patch.com/...ke-in-suffolk-county

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I have lived in West Islip most of my life and my personal feeling is that no one who lives in our hamlet or for that matter in Suffolk County should ever ride a bicycle or a motorcycle.....I have heard the suggestion of bicycle lanes and additional signage but unfortunately this would do little to solve the problem. Suffolk County is a suburban automobile community—drivers expect to see other drivers on the road not bicyclists and motorcyclists. - county legislator


"I can't do anything to solve the problem" says the person that can start helping to solve the problem.
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Post deleted by windschatten [ In reply to ]
Re: Good article about the car vs pedestrian issue in the U.S. [slorunner] [ In reply to ]
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I just watched the video that was released showing the moments leading up to the crash (https://www.curbed.com/...fatal-driverless-car)

There is no way in hell a human driver would've been able to avoid that crash. The woman walked out into a main road directly into the path of oncoming traffic. She literally 'jumps' out of the darkness in front of the car. I'm not 100% familiar with the types of sensors the Uber cars use, I would imagine they should use some infrared sensors as part of the group is sensors, and should be investigated as to why the car didn't sense her in the darkness, but now way is a human eye picking her out in that darkness.
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Re: Good article about the car vs pedestrian issue in the U.S. [rock] [ In reply to ]
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The point people are missing is the level of detail that autonomous cars are investigated. This incident is tragic but the developers will learn from it. In the same way that air crash investigations improve safety with every incident.
I agree a human would not have prevented this crash. The difference is that this type of incident won't happen again. We can't say that about human piloted crashes.
An individual incident tells us very little. I'll reserve judgement on robot cars for now.
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Re: Good article about the car vs pedestrian issue in the U.S. [gregf83] [ In reply to ]
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gregf83 wrote:
If an autonomous vehicle is not several magnitudes better than a human driver at preventing the loss of human life, it cannot be on the road.
Why does an autonomous vehicle need to be several orders of magnitude safer than human drives. What's wrong with just being better?

The Uber accident seems like a poor example at this point until the investigation is complete.[/quote]
Couldn't agree more. The press that this and the other driverless car fatality (Florida, Tesla I think) gets for two fatalities while between the two years there have likely been around 10,000 fatalities with people in control, is quite representative of how bad things are.

My question is, while the cultural preference for cars was clearly driven by the car industry, in various ways, so will they come to the defense of driverless cars or will they try to shut them down too? my guess was that they would want to do all they can to help driverless cars succeed since that would add more potential customers, ones who just can't drive or don't want to.

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo
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Re: Good article about the car vs pedestrian issue in the U.S. [gregf83] [ In reply to ]
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gregf83 wrote:
slorunner wrote:
Good article that really illustrates how far behind the U.S. is in pedestrian safety vs other developed nations when it comes to road design and transportation policy. The impetus for the article was the pedestrian that was struck and killed by an Autonomous Uber vehicle. Cycling isn’t mentioned at all, but the cultural response of not putting any responsibility on the drivers, autonomous or not, is an issue we’re all too familiar with around here.

Quote:
The failure of most local authorities to address the fact that Uber’s vehicle was speeding, or Arizona’s prioritization of cars, or the dangerous design of Tempe’s streets as factors in this crash has now reinforced the belief of many Americans that pedestrians who are killed are “distracted walkers” who deserve to be punished or ticketed or criminalized or slandered.


https://www.curbed.com/...ss-pedestrian-safety
From the article:
Quote:
If an autonomous vehicle is not several magnitudes better than a human driver at preventing the loss of human life, it cannot be on the road.
Why does an autonomous vehicle need to be several orders of magnitude safer than human drives. What's wrong with just being better?

The Uber accident seems like a poor example at this point until the investigation is complete.
Partially agree with 'just being better'. Professional drivers are held to a higher standard than just 'not being at fault', any accident has to be 'not preventable'. Autonomous vehicles should be held to that standard.
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Re: Good article about the car vs pedestrian issue in the U.S. [windschatten] [ In reply to ]
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Hello windschatten and All,

I agree with your point and HuffNPuff.

Because of the disparity in speed and mass, and the likelihood of injury to a cyclist or pedestrian in a crash with a motorist, please consider .....................

http://www.seattledclegal.com/...ability-for-drivers/

Excerpt:

"Should the Law Create a Presumption of Liability for Drivers?


While the plaintiff’s initial burden of proof is likely appropriate in the context of a collision between two motor vehicle drivers, some commentators argue that this burden is inappropriate for collisions between cyclists and motor vehicles. For example, proponents of presumptive liability legislation assert that, by presuming liability of motor vehicle drivers who collide with cyclists, the law would:


  • take into consideration the power imbalance between motor vehicles and bicycles;
  • increase bicycle ridership; and
  • account for the fact that many bicyclists suffer memory loss because of head injuries and have difficulty meeting their burden of proof.[2]

Presumptive liability for motor vehicle drivers is not a concept unique to the United States. On the contrary, several European countries have adopted legal systems where motor vehicle drivers are presumed liable in collisions with pedestrians or bicyclists, including the Netherlands, Spain, Sweden, Germany, Belgium and France.

Opponents of imposing presumptive liability on drivers argue that our legal system is based upon the presumption of innocence, and that presumptive liability violates this basic principle. Furthermore, opponents highlight the fact that Personal Injury Protection (PIP) is fairly common in Washington, and provides no-fault injury coverage for medical treatment, thereby avoiding injustice while the injured bicyclist or pedestrian argues his/her case."

And we have a rising pedestrian death toll:

https://www.nhtsa.gov/...l-traffic-crash-data


Excerpt:

WASHINGTON – The U.S. Department of Transportation’s National Highway Traffic Safety Administration today released fatal traffic crash data for calendar year 2016. According to NHTSA data, which was collected from all 50 states and the District of Columbia, 37,461 lives were lost on U.S. roads in 2016, an increase of 5.6 percent from calendar year 2015.

The number of vehicle miles traveled on U.S. roads in 2016 increased by 2.2 percent, and resulted in a fatality rate of 1.18 deaths per 100 million VMT – a 2.6-percent increase from the previous year.

NHTSA found that distracted driving and drowsy driving fatalities declined, while deaths related to other reckless behaviors – including speeding, alcohol impairment, and not wearing seat belts – continued to increase. Motorcyclist and pedestrian deaths accounted for more than a third of the year-to-year increase.

The 2016 national data shows that:


  • Distraction-related deaths (3,450 fatalities) decreased by 2.2 percent;
  • Drowsy-driving deaths (803 fatalities) decreased by 3.5 percent;
  • Drunk-driving deaths (10,497 fatalities) increased by 1.7 per­cent;
  • Speeding-related deaths (10,111 fatalities) increased by 4.0 percent;
  • Unbelted deaths (10,428 fatalities) increased by 4.6 percent;
  • Motorcyclist deaths (5,286 fatalities – the largest number of motorcyclist fatalities since 2008) increased by 5.1 percent;
  • Pedestrian deaths (5,987 fatalities – the highest number since 1990) increased by 9.0 percent; and
  • Bicyclist deaths (840 fatalities – the highest number since 1991) increased by 1.3 percent. [emphasis added]

As intermediate mitigation that would probably balance out on a cost/benefit basis a motorist hood mounted air bag prevent or lessen many deaths and injuries.
I think the time for the exterior airbags introduction is now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAJYDNr_9w8


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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster
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Re: Good article about the car vs pedestrian issue in the U.S. [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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Exactly what the driver who hit me said... he got a citation for failure to observe a stop sign and went to traffic school. No misdemeanor, no fine.

I got "When I saw your leg I didn't know what to do" from my emergency Ortho doc, three surgeries, a year in rehab, 2 months off work, 16 weeks non weight bearing on crutches and a demeaning experience in deposition. Finally settled 4 years later and I didn't exactly feel whole again.

Presumption is "if you are a pedestrian, you're probably wrong".


"As long as a driver is not drunk, driving recklessly and does not flee the scene, the only thing they have to say is "I didn't see the pedestrian/bicyclist" and they will get off with a misdeameanor and maybe a few hundred dollar fine at most."


don't just do something..... sit there
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Re: Good article about the car vs pedestrian issue in the U.S. [rock] [ In reply to ]
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rock wrote:
I would imagine they should use some infrared sensors as part of the group is sensors, and should be investigated as to why the car didn't sense her in the darkness, but now way is a human eye picking her out in that darkness.

I'm a self-driving car engineer (not Uber). The primary sensor on almost every self-driving car is a laser scanner. It doesn't care about day or night. It's extremely good at seeing things like pedestrians at distances of 50-100m in front of the vehicle. I don't want to make any conclusions at ~7 seconds of video, but the video did *not,*, in my opinion, absolve the autonomy system of liability, as some reports come close to suggesting should be a "preliminary" conclusion.

I've also spent a lot of time as a "safety driver." Including at night. The human eye, combined with headlights, is extraordinary. It's very difficult to compare to a dash cam with unknown iris and exposure settings. I'm not going to put the driver at fault over the internet. Just pointing out that the video, again, shouldn't be treated as any sort of finality.
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