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Re: Is it racist for a black guy to express surprise that a white guy is fast? [gotsand] [ In reply to ]
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gotsand wrote:
BarryP wrote:
... I looked down at the track and saw 9, athletic, moderately tall, lean and muscular black men lined up at the start and in the middle, in the top seed position, a 5'8" Jewish kid. ...


What made you think he was Jewish? Was he Hasidic or otherwise ultra-othodox - ran in a kippah?

Circumcision.

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"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: Is it racist for a black guy to express surprise that a white guy is fast? [Arch Stanton] [ In reply to ]
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Arch Stanton wrote:
Crank wrote:

This. This is why "black people can't be racist." "Racism" is not viewing the world through racially tinged lenses like Deion Sanders does; rather, racism is the exertion of power/hegemony over one race by another one. Therefore, only the oppressor can be "racist" within the definition of the word.


The ol' "only whites can be racists". Let's redefine the word so only whites are racists and black bigots get a free pass. Sounds like you might have spent too much time at Obama's favorite church.

Oh, Christ. LOL. Tell me another one.

War is god
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Re: Is it racist for a black guy to express surprise that a white guy is fast? [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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Many cultures and ethnicities rarely produce people who excel in certain sports. Until Ming, we'd never seen a great asian basketball player, and we certainly wouldn't have expected to see one so large given that asians are typically small people compared to Caucasians and African Americans. Though its not quite surprising to see a black person who can play hockey as they certainly have the athleticism, it might be surprising to see one who grew up playing in Nigeria, a country not known for its elite hockey programs. A kenyan olympic weight lifter would also be surprising. A world class heavyweight latino boxer would be surprising. A Samoan NY Marathon winner would be surprising.

The point of racism is not to dumb oneself down to the point of not recognizing the impact of ethnicity and culture on athletic performance. The only way to not be surprised by the feats is to either be too dumb to recognize these patters, or too ignorant to know that they exist. Being worldly and intelligent enough to recognize these patterns doesn't make the observations racist.

If you think that it makes those observations racist, then I'd content that your definition of the word is a very broad and essentially useless definition.


FWIW, its also not sexist to recognize the differences in men in women.



"Again, the fact that we don't find it offensive, or that he didn't mean it to be offensive to whites, doesn't mean it's not racist. It's the definition of a racist statement, making blanket presumptions about a person because of their skin color.

But from your latter comment, it's clear you're working with a very narrow and essentially useless definition. "

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Is it racist for a black guy to express surprise that a white guy is fast? [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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The difference here is that 1) I'm using a literal application of the definition, and 2) with the understanding that not all manifestations of racism are harmful or offensive. You and others have chosen to define it down to mean something unjust and inherently offensive. That's your choice.

The same is true of how people understand the term discrimination. An act or standard can be discriminatory without that act of discrimination being inherently unjust or offensive. Our local Montclair Moms club discriminates, in that they don't allow male members, even stay-home dads who live in the community. Their policy is discriminatory against men, and moms who live outside of the community, but there's nothing unjust or offensive about it.

The same is true about making certain assumptions based solely on race. That's a form of racism--a relatively innocuous, socially acceptable form, but racism nonetheless.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Is it racist for a black guy to express surprise that a white guy is fast? [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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In addition,

People brought up, "but what if someone said the same thing about a black person's intelligence." The main difference is that blacks are not unintelligent. Sure, you can look at the statistics of academic performance over large populations, but there are too many examples of intelligent individuals to be legitimately surprised by seeing one that acts intelligently.

Having said that, I once had a job interview on the east side of D.C. I walked into an office of not just a handful or professional blacks, but one that was 95% black. I was surprised, not because I didn't think that a black person could obtain a professional job, but because in my experience I had not thought that it would be possible to find an office that was almost exclusively black professionals when the odds of that occurring naturally within America were so slim base on my experiences.

That doesn't make my surprise racist, not unless we're in some hipster gluten free coffee shop in San Francisco where everyone's like, "Oh yeah, I totally expect that some day they'll hire a Samoan marathon champion. They are such beautiful people."

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Is it racist for a black guy to express surprise that a white guy is fast? [Spiridon Louis] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Is it racist for a black guy to express surprise that a white guy is fast? [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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The first definition I found:
"prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior."


We can quibble over whether or not the way Sanders treated the subject was racist (ie he said it on TV maybe when he shouldn't have) but i don't think this definition intends to include simple observations about different cultures and races that are accurate.

Its certainly not racist by any conventional use of the word to observe that white people burn in the sun much easier than blacks. I'd also contend that, according to the literal definition of the word, its not racist to make such an observation provided that you don't direct prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism toward the member of that race. Knowing how melatonin works isn't a prejudice. Assuming that a white person could never be a life guard, is. Being surprised that a pale white person can last in the sun for 4 hours without sun screen isn't prejudice. Refusing to let him apply for the life guarding job, is. etc.

The main point here is that I'll accept that there are gray areas with how we observe different cultures, I don't think the word "racism" is meant to be applied to accurate observations about cultures and ethnicities and having statistically correct expectations based on those observations. Its what you do with that information that determines whether or not racism is present.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Is it racist for a black guy to express surprise that a white guy is fast? [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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The main point here is that I'll accept that there are gray areas with how we observe different cultures, I don't think the word "racism" is meant to be applied to accurate observations about cultures and ethnicities and having statistically correct expectations based on those observations. Its what you do with that information that determines whether or not racism is present.

I think the reality is that race-based stereotypes or presumptions only cross over into the racism category based on how sensitive people are to that stereotype, which is just another way of saying what I've been saying all along. It was a racist sentiment, but not intended to be offensive, and not received as an offense, because he was defying the stereotype rather than reaffirming it, and because it's generally accepted as true, and largely harmless. In other words, no one is sensitive about white kids being slower than black kids, on average, and so referring to those racist stereotypes simply don't do more than raise an occasional eyebrow.

There was a story about an outraged group of black students at NYU who were fed "soul food" in the student cafeteria as part of Black History Month that illustrates the point. Serve a plate of southern soul food to your average black person, and they'll probably enjoy it, as would most white people. Have white men serve it to black people because they presume they'd like it and all hell breaks loose.

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A student group advocating for minority and marginalized students at New York University has issued a statement clarifying what happened at the university last week following a controversial Black History Month meal at the school.

On Sunday afternoon, the Governance Council of Minority and Marginalized Students at NYU released a statement on Twitter saying that the group was “dismayed and disgusted by the information being spread” about a Black History Month meal students had called out for being racist and stereotypical. The meal included ribs, collard greens, and mac and cheese, along with Kool-Aid and watermelon-flavored water.

In the statement, GCOMMS clarified that two Aramark employees who were fired by the food service provider as a result of the incident were a general manager and head cook, and that both are white. The student organization also said that the supervisors “attempted to place the blame on black cooks by saying that the cooks created the menu.”

GCOMMS said it was unacceptable that the blame be placed upon those cooks, but also wrote that no student or student organization desired or demanded that the Aramark employees be fired. The statement also added that the students who inquired about the meal were lied to about who had made the meal and what could be done about it.

The group also addressed criticism that students’ problem with the meal showed that they were ashamed to eat soul flood, or that they were classist and too preoccupied with what white people might think of them.


“The issue is that we attend an institution that constantly ignores the voices of black students and works based upon preconceived stereotypes,” the group wrote, adding that no black students were consulted about the menu.

“We understand the importance of soul food, as many of us are born and raised in Southern homes, however, we take issue when these decisions are made by white managers, from a company that profits off of private prisons,” GCOMMS wrote.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Is it racist for a black guy to express surprise that a white guy is fast? [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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Mmmmmm, soul food. I just got back from North Carolina. I'd get really fat if I lived down there.


Anyway, I give your post a big blue thumb up.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Is it racist for a black guy to express surprise that a white guy is fast? [Frank] [ In reply to ]
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Frank wrote:
Oh for heaven's sake. No it's not racist. It's Dieon talking like he'd talk to all of us if we were hanging out in his house watching the combine. And you know what? We'd all laugh. Was it a smart comment? Probably not.

Kind of like musing on ST about smelling someone's bike seat after a century. Waiting for the ST Mutawa to descend on this post....
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Re: Is it racist for a black guy to express surprise that a white guy is fast? [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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I hear that. We lived near a Piggy Wiggly in Charleston. Best damn fried chicken I ever had. Dangerous stuff.

And my first thought when I read the menu was, you know damn well every meat eating student in that university fucking loved that menu whether or not they'll admit it.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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