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Re: Are you raising your kids with any emphasis on Masculinity or Femininity? [A-A-Ron] [ In reply to ]
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One downside to pushing a girl toward a career so she can be self sufficient while her goal or intent is to be a stay at home mom is the amount of debt she can get in trying to have a career she doesn't want.

True, in this era, being a stay at home parent is an extreme luxury which works out financially for only a small percentage. This is another reason why many traditional roles are don't work out nearly as well now.
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Re: Are you raising your kids with any emphasis on Masculinity or Femininity? [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]
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oldandslow wrote:
What has changed is that those roles are not nearly as acceptable or successful as they were previously. In many ways boys are less well-equipped to manage the changing landscape.

Great point.
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Re: Are you raising your kids with any emphasis on Masculinity or Femininity? [kiki] [ In reply to ]
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kiki wrote:
BCtriguy1 wrote:
Little Jimmy killing it in ballet or shopping for throw pillows with mom doesn't come across nearly as badass as Sally fixing a flat tire or chopping wood with dad.

this is a funny one. I've been watching a lot of classical dance recently and these men (the dancers) are unbelievable physical specimens.

Anyway, the point is now that crossfit style gymnastics are more popular, the male dancers somehow seem less out there. So maybe a lot of it is in the eye and expectations of the beholder.

Absolutely agree. Dancers are on another level of strength and conditioning. They are no joke. It is a shame they don't really get the recognition they deserve as athletes.

Long Chile was a silly place.
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Re: Are you raising your kids with any emphasis on Masculinity or Femininity? [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
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BCtriguy1 wrote:
I think young men crave some kind of responsibility and accountability and that is really lacking in the way many parents bring up their special princes these days.

For the love of god I wish our 13yr olds would crave responsibility and accountability. Jesus christ such angst and family drama.

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"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: Are you raising your kids with any emphasis on Masculinity or Femininity? [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
That was brilliant. I think it dovetails perfectly with the resonant message of Jordan Peterson, which, ironically, is repellant to so many feminists. They're identifying the same problem, and I'm all but certain pointing to the same solution: empowerment.

I read his initial tweets and was admittedly put off by them, probably because of the bent of the people who were promoting it. As he laid it out in that article, I think he's right on point.

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I used to have this one-liner: “If you want to emasculate a guy friend, when you’re at a restaurant, ask him everything that he’s going to order, and then when the waitress comes … order for him.” It’s funny because it shouldn’t be that easy to rob a man of his masculinity — but it is.

Last week, 17 people, most of them teenagers, were shot dead at a Florida school. Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School now joins the ranks of Sandy Hook, Virginia Tech, Columbine and too many other sites of American carnage. What do these shootings have in common? Guns, yes. But also, boys. Girls aren’t pulling the triggers. It’s boys. It’s almost always boys.

America’s boys are broken. And it’s killing us.
The brokenness of the country’s boys stands in contrast to its girls, who still face an abundance of obstacles but go into the world increasingly well equipped to take them on.

The past 50 years have redefined what it means to be female in America. Girls today are told that they can do anything, be anyone. They’ve absorbed the message: They’re outperforming boys in school at every level. But it isn’t just about performance. To be a girl today is to be the beneficiary of decades of conversation about the complexities of womanhood, its many forms and expressions.

Boys, though, have been left behind. No commensurate movement has emerged to help them navigate toward a full expression of their gender. It’s no longer enough to “be a man” — we no longer even know what that means.

Too many boys are trapped in the same suffocating, outdated model of masculinity, where manhood is measured in strength, where there is no way to be vulnerable without being emasculated, where manliness is about having power over others. They are trapped, and they don’t even have the language to talk about how they feel about being trapped, because the language that exists to discuss the full range of human emotion is still viewed as sensitive and feminine.

Men feel isolated, confused and conflicted about their natures. Many feel that the very qualities that used to define them — their strength, aggression and competitiveness — are no longer wanted or needed; many others never felt strong or aggressive or competitive to begin with. We don’t know how to be, and we’re terrified.

But to even admit our terror is to be reduced, because we don’t have a model of masculinity that allows for fear or grief or tenderness or the day-to-day sadness that sometimes overtakes us all.
Case in point: A few days ago, I posted a brief thread about these thoughts on Twitter, knowing I would receive hateful replies in response. I got dozens of messages impugning my manhood; the mildest of them called me a “soy boy” (a common insult among the alt-right that links soy intake to estrogen).

And so the man who feels lost but wishes to preserve his fully masculine self has only two choices: withdrawal or rage. We’ve seen what withdrawal and rage have the potential to do. School shootings are only the most public of tragedies. Others, on a smaller scale, take place across the country daily; another commonality among shooters is a history of abuse toward women.

To be clear, most men will never turn violent. Most men will turn out fine. Most will learn to navigate the deep waters of their feelings without ever engaging in any form of destruction. Most will grow up to be kind. But many will not.

We will probably never understand why any one young man decides to end the lives of others. But we can see at least one pattern and that pattern is glaringly obvious. It’s boys.

I believe in boys. I believe in my son. Sometimes, though, I see him, 16 years old, swallowing his frustration, burying his worry, stomping up the stairs without telling us what’s wrong, and I want to show him what it looks like to be vulnerable and open but I can’t. Because I was a boy once, too.

There has to be a way to expand what it means to be a man without losing our masculinity. I don’t know how we open ourselves to the rich complexity of our manhood. I think we would benefit from the same conversations girls and women have been having for these past 50 years.

I would like men to use feminism as an inspiration, in the same way that feminists used the civil rights movement as theirs. I’m not advocating a quick fix. There isn’t one. But we have to start the conversation. Boys are broken, and I want to help.

That article is the metrosexual view of the male world. I much prefer the more stoic, classic, John Wayne view of the guy world.
My marriage is kinda non-standard. I was 36 when we got married 20yrs ago. Girls had kinda bored me my whole life. So I waited until I found some strong-willed power-chick. She makes 2x what I do, and rules the household. It's pretty rare for me to put my foot down and say "no", because re. 99% of household stuff, I just don't care. I do the cooking because I learned early-on that the alternative was starvation. But I'd been cooking for myself for the 18yrs prior was inclined to remain in charge of what I ate, so I was good. All household chores and kid raising stuff has been shared 50-50.

I didn't intentionally push guy roles on the boys, 14, 13 &13. One of the 3 has been doing dance now for years. On the other hand, there's been lots of discussions of the things that guys are obligated to do, like help folks that are in a jam, protect kids that are smaller, that sort of thing. I don't know anything about raising girls, the very idea terrifies me. But I probably would not have told a daughter that she was obligated to jump in and help some smaller kid if the latter was getting set upon.

We still hear a lot about women being exploited, but what I see is the women taking over. They guys are turning into slugs and the chicks are kicking ass like never before. #1 son ran cross country this year. The girls team was 3x as big as the guy's team. When I was his age the cross country team had 10x as many guys than girls. Hell, the HS even had a girl on the wrestling team. She was wrestling the guys! Holy shit. And she was entirely competent. Take a look at college and post-college admissions, the girls are doing really well. The guys, however, are kinda falling apart. Is sad.

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: Are you raising your kids with any emphasis on Masculinity or Femininity? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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That article is the metrosexual view of the male world. I much prefer the more stoic, classic, John Wayne view of the guy world.

I'm not sure how encouraging kids to understand and process their emotions and issues productively qualifies as metrosexual. Seems to me the ideal way to go about raising a well adjusted kid, male or female.

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We still hear a lot about women being exploited, but what I see is the women taking over. They guys are turning into slugs and the chicks are kicking ass like never before.

So it's not surprising that young men might be struggling with that, adding to their own sense of displacement and powerlessness. I don't pretend to know how big a problem this actually is, but generally speaking, there has been an historic sense that boys are just expected to find success, while girls have been afforded the benefit of encouragement in a feministic environment that seems to view success as a zero sum game, where women's success must necessarily come at the expense of men. That perception, be it accurate or not, could leave one with the impression that men and boys are being devalued. That has to take a toll.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Are you raising your kids with any emphasis on Masculinity or Femininity? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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Thinking a bit more on that metrosexual perspective, I get what you're saying, but I really disagree with that characterization that it's a feminized version of manhood.

A central tenant of what I would describe as the conservative masculine view (self-reliant rugged individualism) is to accept responsibility for who and what you are, and the impact you have on the world around you, and to do whatever is necessary to find the right path. That requires quite a bit of introspection, reflection, critical self analysis, and processing in a healthy way all the inevitable emotional consequences. Showing what you're made of requires knowing what you're made of, where your weaknesses are, how to minimize the damages when those weaknesses are tested, etc. What the author described is essentially frustration and confusion, which leads to powerlessness and anger. Those are generally not conducive to self-reliance and success.

Jordan Peterson touches on this briefly in the first part of this interview, about facing the harsh reality of life, accepting that chaos exists and the responsibility to carry one's own burden, and rejecting a self-defeating victimhood mentality. That's a viewpoint not only compatible with what Black argues for in that piece, but in my view, dependent on.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Last edited by: sphere: Feb 23, 18 22:00
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Re: Are you raising your kids with any emphasis on Masculinity or Femininity? [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah funny that.
I had a case of encephalitis when I was 7. Had some hard times regaining motor skills in my legs. Doctor recommended ballet. Dad's friend recommend martial Arts. Guess where I ended up.
Wish I was hanging around hot women during that time.

Jim
"In dog beers, I've only had one"
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Creating custom made furnishing to your requirements
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Re: Are you raising your kids with any emphasis on Masculinity or Femininity? [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
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That article is the metrosexual view of the male world. I much prefer the more stoic, classic, John Wayne view of the guy world.


I'm not sure how encouraging kids to understand and process their emotions and issues productively qualifies as metrosexual. Seems to me the ideal way to go about raising a well adjusted kid, male or female.

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We still hear a lot about women being exploited, but what I see is the women taking over. They guys are turning into slugs and the chicks are kicking ass like never before.


So it's not surprising that young men might be struggling with that, adding to their own sense of displacement and powerlessness. I don't pretend to know how big a problem this actually is, but generally speaking, there has been an historic sense that boys are just expected to find success, while girls have been afforded the benefit of encouragement in a feministic environment that seems to view success as a zero sum game, where women's success must necessarily come at the expense of men. That perception, be it accurate or not, could leave one with the impression that men and boys are being devalued. That has to take a toll.

The John Wayne type is not at a disadvantage "understanding and processing their emotions productively". One can be an introspective person, and one who watches people and gets the subtleties of their interactions, yet not be a person that wears their emotions on their sleeve. They are an unflappable source of solidity for others to draw strength from when times are hard.

I don't think boys envy the current success of girls, or they feel devalued. They're too oriented on video games to pay much attention to any of that. They're kinda wallowing in the immediate gratification of nihilism.

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
Last edited by: RangerGress: Feb 24, 18 7:04
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Re: Are you raising your kids with any emphasis on Masculinity or Femininity? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think boys envy the current success of girls, or they feel devalued. They're too oriented on video games to pay much attention to any of that. They're kinda wallowing in the immediate gratification of nihilism.

Well, that's comforting ;).
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Re: Are you raising your kids with any emphasis on Masculinity or Femininity? [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]
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oldandslow wrote:
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I don't think boys envy the current success of girls, or they feel devalued. They're too oriented on video games to pay much attention to any of that. They're kinda wallowing in the immediate gratification of nihilism.


Well, that's comforting ;).
It's demoralizing to see the it unfold right in front of me, day after day. The best we could come up with was to make the boys "earn" their video game time. In order to play video games that evening you have to:
Get some exercise, which is usually running or lifting weights. Soccer and dance practice counts too.
Do your daily house cleaning chores.
Do 2x the normal evening Internet math requirement.
Read for 30min and do your mom's writing assignment.

But at the end of the day, all the boys are interested in is video games. None of the widely varied interests, nor the "make stuff" projects of my generation. Is a bummer.

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: Are you raising your kids with any emphasis on Masculinity or Femininity? [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]
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Many years ago, I posted the following; I wonder if it still holds up?

Let me once again post my "Women Are Superior to Men" counter-argument

You see, women are actually the more evolved of our species; it's in the Bible. Whenever God created something, the next thing He did was better; Day and Night, Heaven and Earth, Oceans and Sky, Birds and Beasts and Fishes, etc. until He created Man. Then he took a moment and created Man 2.0 - the upgrade which is now called Woman. And He stopped there

Frank Zappa interlude "In The Beginning ... God made three great mistakes ... First, was called 'Man' The second was called 'Wo-Man' The third was The Poodle."

Now women are a superior model to men because of one great thing ... symmetry. They don't have any odd appendage that seems to just be stuck on as an afterthought. All exterior features are paired up nicely left to right, and for every graceful curve to the front, there is a corresponding arc in the rear.

The symmetry extends down to the genetic level in the XX chromosome pairing.

Being the more highly evolved creature is what gets the female human (ovo sapien???) into trouble. As in every popular science fiction story of the 50's and 60's, what do all alien visitors from more advanced civilizations have in common??? ... That's right - telepathy!!! Our women have it, but they can't yet control it. They hear other women's thoughts all the time, which is why arguments can erupt anytime two or more are in the same room.


"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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Re: Are you raising your kids with any emphasis on Masculinity or Femininity? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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I really feel like it’s a bummer for all kids that we no longer have home ec and shop.

You were not getting out of my middle school without sewing a stuffed animal, making cookies and stir fry and building a shelf. All pretty useful skills.

I agree there seem to be a ton of great activities for girls empowerment- and less for boys these days.
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Re: Are you raising your kids with any emphasis on Masculinity or Femininity? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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It's demoralizing to see the it unfold right in front of me, day after day. The best we could come up with was to make the boys "earn" their video game time. In order to play video games that evening you have to:
Get some exercise, which is usually running or lifting weights. Soccer and dance practice counts too.
Do your daily house cleaning chores.
Do 2x the normal evening Internet math requirement.
Read for 30min and do your mom's writing assignment.

But at the end of the day, all the boys are interested in is video games. None of the widely varied interests, nor the "make stuff" projects of my generation. Is a bummer


That's pretty similar to what's happening in our house. I told my son (8) last summer that if he kept straight As and participated in at least one sport on a regular basis that we'd consider getting him a game system. So he did, has been doing surprisingly well in Taekwondo (the physical and psychological changes have been truly remarkable to watch) and now he has a PS4. If we let him, he'd disappear into that thing for hours upon hours, but the rules are pretty simple: 1h total screen time for the day, but the day has to start with making his bed, picking up his room, getting ready for the day, and doing his exercises. He does 40 pushups, 100 squats, sit-ups and planks, which takes maybe five minutes total. His little brother follows suit on most days, purely out of interest in doing what we're doing.

I saw a quote not long ago that went something like, it's easier to act yourself into a new way of thinking that it is thinking yourself into a new way of acting. Repetition and consistency is key. I've found that enforcing these rules with my kid, it's much easier to follow them myself, and I'm probably healthier and more disciplined now than I've been in several years, entirely as a consequence of providing structure and role modeling for them.

But, yeah, it's easy to see how kids--boys especially--can get sucked into that world and live an existence entirely foreign to what our generation and older experienced as kids, and adults. It's not healthy.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Last edited by: sphere: Feb 24, 18 14:05
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Re: Are you raising your kids with any emphasis on Masculinity or Femininity? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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RangerGress wrote:
oldandslow wrote:
Quote:

I don't think boys envy the current success of girls, or they feel devalued. They're too oriented on video games to pay much attention to any of that. They're kinda wallowing in the immediate gratification of nihilism.


Well, that's comforting ;).
It's demoralizing to see the it unfold right in front of me, day after day. The best we could come up with was to make the boys "earn" their video game time. In order to play video games that evening you have to:
Get some exercise, which is usually running or lifting weights. Soccer and dance practice counts too.
Do your daily house cleaning chores.
Do 2x the normal evening Internet math requirement.
Read for 30min and do your mom's writing assignment.

But at the end of the day, all the boys are interested in is video games. None of the widely varied interests, nor the "make stuff" projects of my generation. Is a bummer.

If it's any consolation, I was really in to video games at that age. Around age 15-16 I discovered both sports and music, and how those activities led to much more interesting and fun encounters with girls, dropped gaming entirely, and haven't been bored a day since. So, there's still hope for your boys!

Long Chile was a silly place.
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Re: Are you raising your kids with any emphasis on Masculinity or Femininity? [RandMart] [ In reply to ]
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RandMart wrote:
Many years ago, I posted the following; I wonder if it still holds up?

Let me once again post my "Women Are Superior to Men" counter-argument

You see, women are actually the more evolved of our species; it's in the Bible. Whenever God created something, the next thing He did was better; Day and Night, Heaven and Earth, Oceans and Sky, Birds and Beasts and Fishes, etc. until He created Man. Then he took a moment and created Man 2.0 - the upgrade which is now called Woman. And He stopped there

Frank Zappa interlude "In The Beginning ... God made three great mistakes ... First, was called 'Man' The second was called 'Wo-Man' The third was The Poodle."

Now women are a superior model to men because of one great thing ... symmetry. They don't have any odd appendage that seems to just be stuck on as an afterthought. All exterior features are paired up nicely left to right, and for every graceful curve to the front, there is a corresponding arc in the rear.

The symmetry extends down to the genetic level in the XX chromosome pairing.

Being the more highly evolved creature is what gets the female human (ovo sapien???) into trouble. As in every popular science fiction story of the 50's and 60's, what do all alien visitors from more advanced civilizations have in common??? ... That's right - telepathy!!! Our women have it, but they can't yet control it. They hear other women's thoughts all the time, which is why arguments can erupt anytime two or more are in the same room.

I guess the LR is running low on pink font?
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Re: Are you raising your kids with any emphasis on Masculinity or Femininity? [SH] [ In reply to ]
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SH wrote:
RandMart wrote:
Many years ago, I posted the following; I wonder if it still holds up?

Let me once again post my "Women Are Superior to Men" counter-argument

You see, women are actually the more evolved of our species; it's in the Bible. Whenever God created something, the next thing He did was better; Day and Night, Heaven and Earth, Oceans and Sky, Birds and Beasts and Fishes, etc. until He created Man. Then he took a moment and created Man 2.0 - the upgrade which is now called Woman. And He stopped there

Frank Zappa interlude "In The Beginning ... God made three great mistakes ... First, was called 'Man' The second was called 'Wo-Man' The third was The Poodle."

Now women are a superior model to men because of one great thing ... symmetry. They don't have any odd appendage that seems to just be stuck on as an afterthought. All exterior features are paired up nicely left to right, and for every graceful curve to the front, there is a corresponding arc in the rear.

The symmetry extends down to the genetic level in the XX chromosome pairing.

Being the more highly evolved creature is what gets the female human (ovo sapien???) into trouble. As in every popular science fiction story of the 50's and 60's, what do all alien visitors from more advanced civilizations have in common??? ... That's right - telepathy!!! Our women have it, but they can't yet control it. They hear other women's thoughts all the time, which is why arguments can erupt anytime two or more are in the same room.

I guess the LR is running low on pink font?

Holy shit those are some good drugs that got to that post.
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