And yet, thousands of riders have had their fits improved by having someone look at pictures or video and tell them what to move and how much.

can i agree with your conclusion, but not your premise?

if one of the tools fitters use are body angles looked at in profile. so, while not entirely precise, isn't a video in profile analogous to that? especially if you can draw in angles to a precision that matches the ranges established by motion capture software based fit systems like retul?

the problem i have with "fit by internet video" is the lack of the rest of the tools. for example, i just hosted a group of fitters last week here at the compound, where they fit people on retul, purely custom, guru and exit cycling fit bikes, to see the similarities, differences, and features. they used the saddle swapping systems on each, and also a "switch-it" device on one of the fit bikes. we have both a velogicfit motion capture system here and a retul. so, folks coming to our workshops can use a variety of tools so that they know what tools they might want in their studios.

hard perhaps to see all this, but the image below is a whole bevy of saddles tried, and then the subject (the lady here) holding the saddle she liked. all the others she hated. we took a poll recently, and just over half of slowtwitchers were on their 3rd, or more than 3rd, tri saddle, and only half of them were done looking. she was able to try all these saddles out in the space of a half-hour because we had a switch-it in-house on one of our fit bikes.



she couldn't really even begin the fit process until we'd found her saddle. once we began it, we could make changes to her fit coordinates, immediately, while she was pedaling, at her target power.

now, dave, with whom you're bantering on this thread, fits folks over the internet. and, he's got a fit bike, and all the typical saddles, aerobars, etc., you'd use in a fit studio. what dave CAN do over the internet is fairly well use videos of consumers. what dave CANNOT do over the internet is all the stuff a good fitter can do in his studio.

but only if that good fitter has the tools, and the knowledge of how to use the tools, and the saddle inventory, what have you. the reason dave even has an internet fitting business is because there aren't enough people out there who can perform the basic stuff, with the basic necessary tools, in person.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

What i am getting at Dan is if say rider has physiological issues, we as fitter might possibly be able to correct from a picture or a video , but really need to fully understand that riders body and their issues.

---

Robert Driskell
Certified Master Body Geometry fit Technician
Certified Master Retul Fit Technician
Zipp Service Course Specialist
Bikes Plus Pensacola Florida

sure. but i'm not one of those guys who thinks most riders have issues. most riders don't, if by "issue" we mean some sort of physical problem that keeps them from riding like you and i. that's a holdover from the serotta school thinking, which is an elegant business model: you have these problems that keep you from riding a typical bike; here is your custom bike geometry that incorporates you incapacities; we happen to sell custom bikes; will that be cash or charge?

not to say physical problems don't present, and maybe it's 1 in 4, 1 in 8, depending on your clientele. just, when fitters leave our workshops, and they now have years of fitting without the use of the tools i demo for them; and a week fitting with the tools, they ALL end up with the tools. fitting with the right tools, the right contact point inventory, and the proper use of the tools and inventory, none of this can you duplicate over the internet.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Serrota was not always about selling custom bikes but about addressing all of the wonderful issues we can help with a proper bike fit. Dan, how often do you encounter athletes with tight IT bands or having patella tendon pain? Just curious,

---

Robert Driskell
Certified Master Body Geometry fit Technician
Certified Master Retul Fit Technician
Zipp Service Course Specialist
Bikes Plus Pensacola Florida

i have encountered both! in me! typically in running. but neither has forced me to ride in an unorthodox position. the problem with a system that says ...

identify disabilities => generate geometry => build custom bike

... is that the bike is very often built to be ridden in a way people just don't ride; and it's an unridden, un-field-tested, unengineered prototype.

now, if you're saying that IT band can't really be handled unless you're willing to look at saddle height, varus/valgus cant, degrees of float arc and where the float starts and stops, cleat fore/aft, stance width, no argument there, and you can't do that over the internet.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I'll add that I had to do about 3000 studio fits on proper equipment before I felt good enough about online fitting to attempt it commercially. Studio fits are an easy A+, while online fits can get you a solid B+ to A- position. So many are pretty much riding a round as D's and F's without access to a competent fitter, online fitting seemed a no brainer. I've done about 20 online fits in the first couple months, and it takes some time, and some back and forth, but I have been very pleased with the results. No complaints from the consumer. We have all been pleasantly surprised.

I've done maybe a half dozen online fits over the years, for coaching clients who simply did not have access to a competent fitter where they lived. So I echo this sentiment. Rather than bemoan that someone is doing B+/A- fits online, we should bemoan that there are so many D and F fitters taking people's money, and that there are parts of the country without even a basic C+ fitter.