I predict that pretty much every response on this thread is going to say the same 2 things:

On 105 vs Ultegra they're both great groupsets and there really is no quantifiable performance or ownership experience difference other than a few grams. So if you want to go bang for your buck then get 105. If you can afford the extra $$ and will get added enjoyment from a bike that is slightly lighter and higher-specced then buying Ultegra is also a great choice.

On QR vs Shiv vs Canyon vs Cervelo - the single most important factor is fit. Get yourself fitted first, then see which bikes work well with your fit (unless you're unusually tall, short or oddly proportioned there will be plenty of options). When you have this shortlist, only then do you start looking at which one does best in the wind tunnel, which one you can get a good deal on, what colours you like, etc.

Ultegra is better than 105 in two ways. First is weight; that is easy. The second is wear-- how long it will stay shifting and working smoothly. IMO, 105 tends to show its age after a season of riding (~5K miles). It will tend to lose its crispness, and in my experience, I started getting chain drops more frequently that I could not eliminate with adjustment.

If the difference between the two bikes is just $500, then I would definitely get the Ultegra bike. It is a total upgrade: crankset, cassette, and derailleurs. There is $500 of value in that before you get to the bottle.

To answer your question at the end about upgrading now or later, I did the upgrade later path. I started with a very good bike on 105. I upgraded to Ultegra after a year, and now I am about to upgrade again to Di2. I recommend getting the fastest frame within your budget, because it is very easy to upgrade components. It is very difficult to upgrade a frame. So, the question to as is, if the price of the Shiv with Ultegra is in your budget, are there any other faster frames at that same pricepoint on 105?

While I agree that Ultegra is a better groupset, I respectfully disagree that 105 shows it age any earlier than Ultegra.

It comes down to how well maintained you keep you bike.

So, you believe that the bearings and tolerances between 105 and Ultegra are the same and will wear the same?

My first-hand experience with 105 is that it lost its precision after about 5K of riding. Mechanics at two local bike shops in my area have the same opinion of 105-- that it is good for about a season of consistent riding. I am a pretty good bike mechanic and I clean my bike regularly. After about a year of riding, the RD was not shifting as crisply as new, and I was getting frequent chain drops. I could not adjust it out. Everything got perfect again when I change the RD & FD to Ultegra. I believe that wear in the 105 RD affects its ability to move with same precision and quickly take up chain slack like it did when new. This leads to the performance degradation. My first-hand experience with Ultegra so far is that it seems to go on forever with little signs of change or wear.

There's a price differential for a reason and I would expect 105 to wear faster than Ultegra. But to suggest that Ultegra goes on 'forever' suggests a touch of hyperbole.

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Trust me I’m a doctor!
Well, I have a PhD :-)

Definitely hyperbole to emphasize that difference. Of course, I will never know on my current bike, because I have only had it for a little over a year and I am about to pull it off for Di2.

But, I have older Shimano mid-grade on other bikes that I have totally abused, and it is great after many years. And, although it is not Ultegra, I still have my original racing bike from the 80s with its original Dura Ace. That bike has unknown miles, but it is well north of 30K and probably closer to 40K miles. Its DA is still perfect, and it is on the original freewheel and chainrings (but many chains). My first-hand experience with Ultegra wear is similar to my old DA wear. If you take care of it, Ultegra can be forever stuff. 105, not so much.

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I have owned Shimano equipped road and mountain bikes off and on for about 30 years and I would agree that durability definitely is much better for the higher end stuff. I have had 105 and Ultegra groups that were completely thrashed in under 12 months. Quality also seems to vary year to year as they fix the design of some parts. I will admit that Dura Ace is a consistent quality product, but they charge a lot.

On the other end of the spectrum is Campy. The durability is good from the low to high end. It is probably the only reason they are still in business.

In my original post, you didn't quote this: "While I agree that Ultegra is a better groupset,"

I merely said that I disagree that 105 shows it's age any earlier than Ultegra. I do agree that Ultegra shift better right from the start. I've had 105 derailleurs on bikes for many years without shifting issues but then I'm also a mechanic and re-cable my bikes every year.

I omitted that first statement because I agreed. It was the statement about wear that I was responding to. I hate to totally derail this thread, but it is interesting to me that we have opposite perceptions and experiences of 105 on the two latter points. My personal experience was amazement at the quality of 105 shifting out of the box. Prior to buying my 105 bike, I was nervous about performance, since I had never had below Shimano's Ultegra (or equivalent) in my life. So, for me, I thought 105 shifted great when new, but that original performance declined after several thousand miles and about a year. I moved my original 105 RD over to my road bike when I built it on the cheap, and i am looking forward to pulling that off soon as well.

I am not a professional mechanic, but I have a crapton of bike maintenance experience in my life, including doing work with a charity that collects and gives away used bikes.

So in my local town they only sell two bikes, the Shiv and Cervelo P2 and P3. However, they aren't offering a good deals and they rarely do on their tri bikes. How do I ask for a fit when I know I can save at least $600 to $1000 dollars out of town? I assume that I am somewhat proportionally built, I have a longer legs than my torso but I don't think its weird. 32.76" to 23.46".

OK, sound it sounds like if I can afford the Ultegra, its worth it. So Thank you for that. I do take care of my bikes and I do clean my bike often and I am getting better at maintaining bikes thanks to YouTube. I think I will end up going with Ultegra since the price difference is slim and 9 replies talk about how it is better.


Assuming fit is no issue which bike is a great bike to start with? QR vs Shiv vs Canyon vs Cervelo?

Here is a fitter database on this website: http://www.slowtwitch.com/fitters/

Maybe there is an independent fitter in your area. Or, maybe that shop will sell you a fit, independent of a bike purchase.

In my area, most of the shops will offer a fit for around $300. And then, if you buy a bike, they will either refund the fit or deduct the fit from the bike purchase. So net, if you buy a bike from them, the fit is free. There are also a couple independent fit shops that just focus on the fit, independent of a bike sale. Also, a number of the shops occasionally offer their fits on sale for $150 - $200.

All things being equal on fit, this is how I would rank the four bikes you list:

1. Canyon - incredible value (low price, good componentry, and relatively fast)
2. Cervelo - lower value (higher price relative to out-of-the-box performance), but can be made much faster with upgrades
3. QR - Unknown; I'm not sure how these stack up re performance
4. Shiv - Great value at the lower-end price points, but not sure if it can ever be made as fast as Canyon or Cervelo
   

Some really good advice on this thread until the 105 vs Ultegra argument took over. I do agree from that argument that Ultegra last longer. However, if you can get a SRAM Red groupset from starbike for about what you would pay for Ultegra and if you want bang for your buck, I would do that. If you have room in your budget, you could go electronic and you will love it each time you ride.

I think one piece of good advice was focus on the frame first if your budget doesn't allow frame and components to be nice. In terms of frames, the Canyon is great, but they won't have their act together in the U.S. for awhile. The Shiv is old and doesn't test as fast. You can't go wrong between the Cervelo and the QRs. I just got a QR PR6 disc because I really wanted disc brakes. I also really like that I can get the frame only and build the bike the way I want, but as a former bike mechanic, this is easy for me to do (though hydraulic disc brakes weren't around when I was a mechanic so I am having to learn about these).

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2018 Races: IM Santa Rosa, Vineman Monte Rio, Lake Tahoe 70.3

That's fair, OP needs opinions from everyone. :)

A fit isn't something you ask for, it's something you pay for. Professional bike fitter that spends a couple of hours with you on a fitting rig and figures out a good riding position. If your LBS offers that service then it should be independent of the bikes they sell. And if you do end up wanting a bike that they sell there shouldn't be any issue telling them you can get it cheaper out of town and asking them to either price match or throw in other incentives to make it worth your while buying there.

105 vs Ultegra: noticeable, but modest difference

The big jump is going up to Di2. That is just so damn smooth and fun. I also find it more reliable. My earlier Ultegra mechanical shifting bike needs to get adjusted all the time. The Dura-ace Di2 bike always feels dialed-in.

I agree, modest difference in the shifting. I have a 2008 Secialized Roubaix that started out with an Ultegra triple that I bought specifically to do a climbing challenge. Later I decided to switch it out to a compact 50/34 Quarq and chose 105 shifters for the conversion. It's a 10 speed set-up and I didn't notice much of a change in shifting. Of course, the long cage derailleur is Ultegra so maybe that's the difference. I wear through cogs and chains on a regular basis but in 10 years, I haven't seen any significant change in shifting except when the chain or cogs are worn.

I have a Yfoil with Dura Ace 9 speed that shifts like the day I bought it. The benefit then was not only weight, but a shorter throw to shift. DA has always been nice but if you're on a budget, difficult to justify.

I'm old enough that my first 2 bikes did not have index shifting. The trick to this was getting a feel for where the correct shift position was located. For some gears this would require a minor reposition of the front derailleur after the initial rear derailleur shift. Di2 does this automatically which is why it feels so dialed in. I'm pretty sure this happens with Ultegra electronic shifting as well.

I would way prefer a 105 bike and save the money for a crank based power meter like power 2 max. I dont really think there is a discernable difference between 105 and Ultegra that would lead to any real performance gain.

Buy a close out P2 for 2100 or so, put a power meter and nice wheels and get a great bike for under 4 k.

Speaking to the Shiv, specifically: for the ~price of an Expert, you could buy a Sport and upgrade the shifting to UDi2 or SRAM eTap. I wouldn't bother changing the cranks; the Praxis Alba is decent enough; just the derailleurs/chain/cassette/shifters.

The Fuelselage and SWAT-box are both available a-la-cart, if you really want them.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

Ultegra is better than 105 in two ways. First is weight; that is easy. The second is wear-- how long it will stay shifting and working smoothly. IMO, 105 tends to show its age after a season of riding (~5K miles). It will tend to lose its crispness, and in my experience, I started getting chain drops more frequently that I could not eliminate with adjustment.

If the difference between the two bikes is just $500, then I would definitely get the Ultegra bike. It is a total upgrade: crankset, cassette, and derailleurs. There is $500 of value in that before you get to the bottle.

To answer your question at the end about upgrading now or later, I did the upgrade later path. I started with a very good bike on 105. I upgraded to Ultegra after a year, and now I am about to upgrade again to Di2. I recommend getting the fastest frame within your budget, because it is very easy to upgrade components. It is very difficult to upgrade a frame. So, the question to as is, if the price of the Shiv with Ultegra is in your budget, are there any other faster frames at that same pricepoint on 105?[/quote]

What would be a faster frame? Cervelo, Canyon and QRs? Or is it a matter preference? You all have me thinking now... A di2 setup would be sweet and convenient.

Between those three, probably no one can convincingly argue that one frame is faster than the others. Cervelo has lots of love due to their brand history and halo performance of the P5 and P5x. The frame itself is only a minor factor affecting overall speed. That said, the P2/P3 does have some older design elements that are inherently slower, like exposed rear brake, poor brake cable routing, lack of integrated storage, and tall seat stays. If you upgrade the other speed parts, you can get a P2/P3 very fast, but those costs, coupled with a higher starting cost, put the P2/P3 at a value disadvantage.

I would much rather start with a Canyon or QR that is lower cost and better appointed going in. The frame performance deltas between those and a P2/P3 are probably both minor and debatable.

I've always felt that shifting is one of the most expensive and low-yield places to spend money on your bike.

I've ridden Sora, 105, ultegra, and DA (not Di2!) in 10sp varieties. I def agree that DA and ultegra is better machined. But after a season, it's really how well maintained you keep your stuff that makes it perform, and 105-ultegra-DA require minimal adjusting once its dialed in, even after hard seasons of riding.

Even the Sora and sub-sora (yep, rode that too!) stuff works near-perfectly once it is dialed in, although for sure, it's a bit clunkier, noisier, and shifts noticeably slower than the 105+. Still, I would say that absolutely ZERO triathletes are losing races because of it- I could ride this in a crit and it would work fine. I could ride my Sora all day without complaint - in fact, I often wish I could just do that! The problem with Sora is that it wasn't 10 or 11sp, and thus wouldn't play well with other parts from the 105-DA system.

I recently put a 10sp current-gen Tiagra on my road bike, and it shifts as well as my (much older) 2008 Cervelo DA 10sp groupset. I can't even tell the difference, which is a credit to how well the new Tiagra works, as well as a credit to how well a circa 2008 Cervelo DA front/rear derailleur setup works over time.