What is the mechanism whereby squats have this tremendous impact? The forces required in cycling are like an
order of magnitude less than max strength force.


No, you don't know that. Maybe the gains would have been greater without the strength program...

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Possible mechanisms are increase in LT (study) and cycling economy (study).

I'm not claiming these studies are the final conclusive word on strength training and cycling. The research is mixed. But you asked for mechanisms, so I'm providing plausible mechanisms.

So to put those two in the context of this original post in this thread, I'll point out that the first was in untrained athletes, so it's not terribly relevant. The second ADDED squats to a regimen and didn't take the place of a cycling workout.

I realize that you're just posting proposed mechanisms, but neither seems to support the way it's being used here.

I was answering Lehner, not the OP.

I don't ever replace a workout with strength training, I just add the strength training. I do strength training twice a week in the off season, one session on lower body and some core, the other is upper body and some more core. Once the season starts, I back off to one day a week and don't go as hard. I concentrate more on doing 3 sets of 10 reps, rather than max weight. I also try not to ride the day after lifting.

To steal a quote...Your mileage may vary.

But you've kind of replaced a theoretical cycling workout. You have some extra time available. So if you're "adding" strength training then presumably you could have added more cycling. So you're making a kind of replacement.

Which is fine. If someone rides, say, 15 hours per week, those hours don't all have the same value. The first hour is incredibly beneficial. Doing *some* riding is way better than no riding at all. But by the time you get to the 15th hour, that's the least valuable hour. All training is individual, of course, but for some that's the hour where you maybe question that it's any benefit at all. And it's the least-valuable hour that you consider for alternatives. Like rest. Or strength training. Of course if someone is severely time limited, and only has 9 hours, then it becomes harder to justify non-specific activities.

I've made the decision to use a couple hours per week for strength training. First, I'm a track cyclist as well, so I have the directly tangible payoff of increased peak torque on the those first few pedal strokes off a standing start. Second, it makes me feel good. Third, I'm getting older (44) and there's some evidence that strength training can slow the inevitable loss of lean muscle mass that starts to accelerate around that age. Fourth, it's good for natural production of anabolic hormones (the same ones that are depressed by endurance training). And last, maybe it helps with LT and cycling efficiency.

After a decade of saving people from weights, is there on reflection a better use of time, even if you are right

Abstract....conclusions....tables....full read.

Paulo used to say that when referring to papers.

And I would add that AC mentioned (alluded to) in another thread that there is very often a disconnect between what was intended or reported in the conclusions to what actually f$&king happens in the tables.

....tables, always check the tables.

2c

Maurice

OK.

Tables. Thanks for the contribution.

Not being a smart ass.

But if you actually look at the tables you will see how they didn’t pick control vs Intervention without bias. IE wasn’t random.

%lt at vo2 dropped in the intervention group, training hours are self selected/reported (that is bad regardless of any random training intervention)

Anyways feel free to re-read and assess as you see fit.

The only thing that strength training studies have definitively shown is that there is no increase in VO2Max.

Increase in LT and cycling economy are not mechanisms but results.

The putative explanation for improvements is increased fatigue resistance due to extra recruitment of fast twitch fibres.

Outside of sprinting, I have yet to see someone become a better cyclist through strength training. I have problems with every paper I've read, but some of the more recent studies appear to be better designed.

I'm going to go to the gym twice a week for the next couple of months and see if it makes any difference for myself. I'll do it on evenings after a hard workout. I have the extra time.

Here's an interesting informative article about one man's experience.
http://www.cyclingweekly.com/fitness/strength-training-for-cyclists-is-it-worth-it-125222

Yeah, but this is typical of the strength-for-cycling-threads and why I explicitly stated that I wasn't presenting those studies as any sort of conclusive evidence about the benefit of strength training for cycling. I think those were my exact words. There is no magic paper or set of papers that you can slap down on your desk and conclude that it works or doesn't work.

So threads are just one side presenting some piece of evidence, and then other side starts throwing darts, "sample size! untrained! bias! empirical cohort study! (gasp). oh my god, look at that p-value, Paulo said X! (eyes roll)"

This is, sadly, the nature of a lot of exercise physiology studies. We know that specificity, overload, and progression are pretty solid principles that any athlete needs to adhere to go some degree. Also maybe periodization. It goes rapidly downhill from there. Very rapidly.

But the papers (pro and con) have some value. They can provide glimpses into things like plausible mechanisms. Which is what I was doing.

Case in point above. Tears apart posted study, attacks use of terminology.

Posts blog by some dude as "informative."

I found the published cycling weekly article to be very "informative" as to how one would approach a strength training program and the author was honest about his own results. Not pretending to be a scientific study but it was well-written and the author "informed" himself about how to go about it by approaching some experts. I intend to incorporate some of the exercises as well as those outlined in the Ronnestad series of papers.

If strength training really helped with cycling it should be easy to prove. The literature hasn't done that. Maybe it's only a marginal gain. I think it's still worth investigating and the proposed mechanisms are interesting and feed into design of future studies.

I didn't think I tore apart any papers, but even if I did, that's how Science works. I've reviewed hundreds of papers and thought my comments were mild.

I strength train and always have. No idea if it's helping my SBR, but:
- it doesn't take up a lot of time (I'm done in 2 sessions of under 30 minutes per week);
- it seems to help my injury resistance, particularly for running; and
- while the studies on lifting to improve SBR are mixed, the studies on the benefits of lifting to health as you get older are pretty much unanimous.

I also quite enjoy it

This is exactly the way I feel about lifting. Spent the last 2-3 years more time constrained and training only on specificity, SBR. My strength level has dropped dramatically, to the point where I don't like it. I started the Stronglifts 5x5 plan someone on here suggested, and my first session of squats of 5x5 at 95 lbs destroyed my legs, like could barely walk the next day. I'm a bigger guy that has always lifted up until the last few years, and while I still have cycling and running endurance, my power fell off a cliff.

That's not happening to me again, my squats are back up quite a bit, approaching 1x body weight (I know, not much) but I feel much better. Upper body work is also coming along. I'll scale back when the official training starts... 1-2 sessions per week, but I'm committed to lifting heavy things, at least some. It may not help, but I truly believe it isn't hurting.

I read (review) papers like this:

Read Abstract (to get overview of what study is about)

Read Results

Read Methods (but only if not clear from Results presented)

Draw my own Conclusions

Read Intro and authors' Conclusions

Decide whether I agree or disagree.

All of which reminds me: I have a paper that I still need to review...

I haven't read others' replies yet, but at 3 weeks, you're still a long way away from taking advantage of any hypertrophy or strength that the resistance training is intended to stimulate. I agree though, 30% is a tremendous (and pretty surprising decline). Just as an anecdote for how little the actual activity of resistance training can have, I've been lifting pretty religiously for 20 years and some of my best run performances (5k) have been within 24h after a pretty intense squat session. I'd stick with it, but understand that the acclimations you're attempting to generate are going to take some time to manifest.

---

---------------------------------------------------------------

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/profile/domingjm

Thanks. I rowed in college, so leg day etc is no stranger. But my legs are SHOT and it’s very frustrating.

But everyone has been helpful and I’ve put together a plan going forward. Cheers

---

_____________________________________
What are you people, on dope?

—Mr. Hand

I'm wondering why anyone thinks more *strength* is the answer to any question regarding triathlon racing.

Lot of really fast triathletes do it, and it is reasonably common for people to mimic what really fast people do. It could be argued though that the really fast people are doing it with like their 40th hour of training, after doing 39 hours of endurance things. And some age-grouper doing it with like their 9th hour of training after only 8 hours of endurance things could be doing it all wrong.

[Alistair Brownlee]

Please tell me that the "5" on those plates represents "stones" or some other British aberration, and not kilograms.

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

In what world does that count as "strength training"?

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Those are giant plates if they are just 5kg. They look about the size of a 45lb plate to me.

edit: apparently they are 5kg plates.

https://www.eleikoshop.com/collections/complete-sets-1/products/eleiko-olympic-weightlifting-technique-set

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly