Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Jan 23, 18 11:03

Post #26 of 42 (676 views)

I realize these things are not perfectly comparable.

What if you bought something from amazon, and in the end it didn't meet your expectations for some reason and amazon said "we'll give you a refund but you need to let us post on your twitter and facebook how awesome we are and then we'll refund you"? How would you feel about that as a consumer?

Amazon does not make us do that. No company does. Why? Because making customer jump through hoops to be satisfied with a transaction is a sure fire way to alienate that customer and future customers.

Find a way to create a business that satisfies customers. Not sure why this is a sticking point.

Might it make the product more expensive? Maybe. But there's no hoops you can jump through that will entice me to spend hundreds of dollars months before the event. But if I knew I could get a refund should something go awry? Then I'd be much more likely.

Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Jan 23, 18 11:03

Post #27 of 42 (675 views)

As a racer, I think its a fine idea. I'm typically trying to manipulate my friends into racing with me in a lot of my daily conversations. If they agree to race, then I can usually rope them into training with me. I try to be subtle so I haven't used fb in this way. Yet.

Roping in new friends is really challenging. The swim is a major hurdle for many. Second is perceived cost of all the gear, not necessarily of the race. But investing in the conversion of non-athlete friends into participants is investing in my own happiness. Worth the effort!

Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [desert dude] [ In reply to ]

Jan 23, 18 11:04

Post #28 of 42 (673 views)

If it's taking you more than 20 minutes to find out all the referral sources for your traffic to your site...you have done something painfully, painfully wrong with your click tracking.

UTM tags FTW. Or, you know, outsource it to somebody who knows what they're doing. :)

There's a bunch of reasons as to why this wouldn't be a good idea - but tracking isn't it.

----------------------------------
Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Jan 23, 18 11:05

Post #29 of 42 (673 views)

I think the volunteer option is a good way to go because this can be done if the reason for cancellation is an injury, that isn't too severe... But as I mentioned - a credit is the best option imo because both parties don't lose $$$ (I understand there may be a bit of a loss for the organiser on the day but in my eyes - I don't feel that I have. It also ensures that I'm back to race again and possibly bring some friends along). You are right about putting in a claim - gotta get a docs note which costs extra $$ .. it's a pain in the ass but better than no refund / credit.

Another idea is the fee (or part of it) will go to a charity. If an organiser is pocketing the $$ showing no compassion whatsoever (cuz I'd say there is most likely some compassionate reason why someone can't race) then it's just really bad PR. I've had organisers tell me / my friends - oh we've already spent your $$ on race day logistics - no credit or refund! How shitty is that to hear when you've spent months training but instead of racing you're at home on (what you think is) your deathbed. Yeah it's probably the truth but just screams out "we only care about what's lining our pockets".

But honestly I do not decide to do a race or not based on its cancellation policy but a good one will make it easier for me to hit the Pay button.

Now the other stuff about failing / declining races .. ppl not happy with the prices ... perhaps there needs to be more transparency about where the $$ is going. I think you need to look at a cultural shift in Tri. But that's another topic altogether.

Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Jan 23, 18 11:05

Post #30 of 42 (671 views)

I don't know how much value there is in me posting a race to my social media. If it's a race I'm excited about I'm already bugging my friends to sign up with me. I am on a team of close to 100 people and I can't imagine any of them would see me post a race on FB and then decide to enter. You're better off approaching the local teams and trying to make it one of their feature events for the year. Heck, approach multiple teams and try to make a competition out of it. We've done that locally and the winning team received $500 to donate to whatever charity they wanted.

I'm not a RD so maybe someone can tell me... do most RD's reach out to the local teams? How common are teams? I'm in West Michigan and can think of at least half a dozen prominent teams off the top of my head and could probably come up with a dozen if I really thought about it.

Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Jan 23, 18 11:10

Post #31 of 42 (666 views)

Slowman wrote:

sch340 wrote:

Now airlines are clearly not the most well respected businesses in terms of customer service (for reasons unrelated to this, I believe) but the model works pretty well in terms of meeting the business' and customers' needs for pricing and flexibility.

airlines are the most despised companies in the world when it comes to customer service. there's a big difference between companies you are forced to patronize versus those you elect to patronize.

but i see your point. what if it was:

$100: no refunds.
$100: refundable up to 2 weeks before the race, with your social media post.
$125: refundable for any reason up to 2 weeks before the race, no strings.

I like this model better. Or rather.
$100 for the race or the option of adding x dollars to have insurance on your entry for refund. The grouped insurance can cover the losses from the refunded registration and keep the race fees lower.
Without an insurance premium all fees go up to offset the cost.

The problem with a full refund is it costs money to attract registrations. It is so easy for someone who no longer feels like it to request a full refund.
Our event offers 50% refund (we pay the reg fees). Each year I get ~20 requests for a refund, many times because they have a wedding to go to. Once explaining there is a 50% refund it is amazing how many will skip the supposed wedding and attend the race. Replace wedding with awful injury etc. I get it plans change, but the event has made an investment in every participant registered, not only those who show up on race day. It is not a commerce store that can resell a product, this is a service. Airlines, AirBnB, SAS, TrainerRoad, etc. don't give refunds.
Now, if my event is sold out, no problem - full refund and open the spot to the next person on the waiting list.

Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [RobAllen] [ In reply to ]

Jan 23, 18 11:19

Post #32 of 42 (659 views)

RobAllen wrote:

Slowman wrote:

sch340 wrote:

Now airlines are clearly not the most well respected businesses in terms of customer service (for reasons unrelated to this, I believe) but the model works pretty well in terms of meeting the business' and customers' needs for pricing and flexibility.

airlines are the most despised companies in the world when it comes to customer service. there's a big difference between companies you are forced to patronize versus those you elect to patronize.

but i see your point. what if it was:

$100: no refunds.
$100: refundable up to 2 weeks before the race, with your social media post.
$125: refundable for any reason up to 2 weeks before the race, no strings.

I like this model better. Or rather.
$100 for the race or the option of adding x dollars to have insurance on your entry for refund. The grouped insurance can cover the losses from the refunded registration and keep the race fees lower.
Without an insurance premium all fees go up to offset the cost.

The problem with a full refund is it costs money to attract registrations. It is so easy for someone who no longer feels like it to request a full refund.
Our event offers 50% refund (we pay the reg fees). Each year I get ~20 requests for a refund, many times because they have a wedding to go to. Once explaining there is a 50% refund it is amazing how many will skip the supposed wedding and attend the race. Replace wedding with awful injury etc. I get it plans change, but the event has made an investment in every participant registered, not only those who show up on race day. It is not a commerce store that can resell a product, this is a service. Airlines, AirBnB, SAS, TrainerRoad, etc. don't give refunds.
Now, if my event is sold out, no problem - full refund and open the spot to the next person on the waiting list.

AirBNB does in fact allow cancellations without charge: https://www.airbnb.com/...ancellation_policies

Airlines allow cancellations with certain ticket types

TrainerRoad most certainly will refund.

Not sure how SAS is appropriate as it is a B2B type thing. And I guarantee you SAS is flexible with clients.

Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Jan 23, 18 11:44

Post #33 of 42 (648 views)

2. but to qualify for it, you must post, to social media, telling folks you're entering, and inviting them to enter with a link to the event.

Some of the registration platforms offer this at check-out, to either Facebook or Twitter typically, as something that you can do right from the registration page. "Hey I've just registered for the Dan Empfield Triathlon . .etc . ."

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Jan 23, 18 11:54

Post #34 of 42 (644 views)

Slowman wrote:

tell my why my idea is full of shit.

Beyond Strava's auto-upload from Garmin I don't use social media.

Honestly I think there's a better way to solve this by collecting together races & allowing transfers between them.

Let's for arguments sake call this the 'SRS' (Small Race Series), with 100's of races all over the world that are 'SRS' approved.

As a member of the SRS I can (if injured) switch my entry from one SRS race to another at any stage.

You could even layer on SRS leaderboards/competitions etc...

Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Jan 23, 18 12:11

Post #35 of 42 (636 views)

It is full of shit because it prohibits me from a refund, as I don't have any social media outlet (except for Strava).
To me it's the same as offering a cancellation refund as long as I go to Ironman headquarters and yell 5 times "Dan Empfield is the BEST".
(Which I guess I'd rather do than getting a Facebook account)

NO

Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [Alabama Viking] [ In reply to ]

Jan 23, 18 12:28

Post #36 of 42 (620 views)

Alabama Viking wrote:

I go to Ironman headquarters and yell 5 times "Dan Empfield is the BEST".

shit. i'll comp you if you do that.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [marklemcd] [ In reply to ]

Jan 23, 18 12:48

Post #37 of 42 (613 views)

marklemcd wrote:

AirBNB does in fact allow cancellations without charge: https://www.airbnb.com/...ancellation_policies
Show me the percentage of listings with flexible cancellation policies. I have yet to find one for my summer vacation. All seem to be strict, losing 50% right away. 100% a week out.

Airlines allow cancellations with certain ticket types
Premium tickets. You are paying extra for that service.

TrainerRoad most certainly will refund.
You can get a refund on a yearly subscription simply because you no longer want to use it anymore? Good to know.

Not sure how SAS is appropriate as it is a B2B type thing. And I guarantee you SAS is flexible with clients.

Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Jan 23, 18 13:15

Post #38 of 42 (600 views)

Slowman, a few more thoughts on this ... esp after reading your other threads ...

Why not offer concessions or discounts to the young and old? specifically students, seniors etc? And also unemployed? The discount can be offset by raising the general registration fee ... I know that not everyone will be happy about it but if you're raising it by a few dollars to get more people, and YOUNG people to participate - then that's setting it up for the next generation. I can afford it so I'm happy to "subsidise" others to participate who otherwise wouldn't be able to afford it. Let's face it - triathlon is a bloody expensive sport.

So keeping this in mind - that it's expensive - how can it be more accessible to a wider demographic? We discusssed this is another thread. At the moment - what's the typical profile of a triathlete?

If people complain about the cost - but it's unavoidable - then yes transparency will go a long way. Certainly rubs us the wrong way if we *think* the organiser is making a huge profit from us.

Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Jan 23, 18 13:21

Post #39 of 42 (595 views)

Slowman wrote:

i had a GREAT time with you all yesterday in the 3 or so threads that focused on why you enter, why you don't enter, and what causes you to enter early. i want to ask about something i thought about last night and this morning. it's based on this:

1. a lot of you it seems will enter a race in large part because you're friends are racing it.
2. all of you want the ability to cancel if you get injured or whatever.
3. most of you have a pretty tight budget for what you'll spend on a race.

so... how do you keep the price low? and allow for cancellations? here is what i've come up with, as one option, which may be totally shitty, but i thought i'd throw it out and see if there's anything to it...

1. if you enter early, you are offered a full cancellation option, meaning, a full refund minus the cost of the registration charge that the RD would have to eat (5 percent let us say).

2. but to qualify for it, you must post, to social media, telling folks you're entering, and inviting them to enter with a link to the event.

if you want to trigger the cancellation clause, and get your refund, you must post a link that shows your social outreach, and it must be timely, as in, within 72 hours of the time you entered.

the idea here is:

1. your social outreach offsets the financial risk of the cancellation policy. access to my social outreach isn't going to convince someone to enter a triathlon.....really not worth anything to an RD.....if they havn't decided to enter, an "invite" from me means little.
2. this partly solves the question of how friends know friends are racing what races. my friends already know what races I'm doing and it really doesn't influence their decision.....they race their own schedule regardless of what I'm doing
3. this keeps the race from escalating its fees as the race approaches, because only the early adopters get to invoke the cancellation policy. (late enterers don't pay more, but they don't get to cancel). whats to prevent having this policy regardless?

tell my why my idea is full of shit.

See notes above. Add me to list who think access to a social media account is really not going to benefit RDs for reasons mentioned above. And you really can't compare refund policies to other industries.....too many differences. Personally, I have a hard time thinking people don't sign up for a race because there is no refund policy. And as I mentioned in an earlier post, presenting the fee closer to race time as an "increase/escalated price" is bad marketing. A) Price the race as "X" and have a tiered system of discounts for early sign up AND offer refund option(s) (not full) if cancelled by a certain date. I.e., refund options could range from 20-50% depending on cancel date to 100% applied to the following years event or a race in another series. I haven't been in the sport that long.....have refunds ever been offered? Do RDs get burned if they offer? Or has this been the history of tri......no refunds?

Add: if I sign up for a race, I'm going to be there.....in 6 years, never cancelled. Is there a documented history anywhere in tri history......if an event typically has 1000 entrants and offers a refund policy......how many people will actually ask for one?

Last edited by: gphin305: Jan 23, 18 13:28

Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Jan 23, 18 13:33

Post #40 of 42 (588 views)

A (different) industry conference during its first years used personalized referral coupons to promote it. If you sign up for the campaign (I'm sure initially they reached out to people), you get a personal coupon code, which would give people using it during registration some % discount. If 5 people signed up with your coupon code, you get your free ticket.

This way there is enough value to allow the flexibility to tie it to cancellations somehow. Sure, there can be issues with it (if only you get the benefit, but not your friends, are you taking advantage of them? Why don't people who directly sign up get the option to refund? etc.), but this looks like a brainstorming thread, so throwing the idea in

Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Jan 23, 18 13:51

Post #41 of 42 (585 views)

I have seen a couple others mention it, but one of the local races (half IM) around me has started offering a VIP package. One of the components of this package is the ability to defer to the next year no questions asked, or to drop to the sprint distance at any time. It also had a couple other benefits, but those appeared to be the big things. I was amazed at how many people took the RD up on this.

To me it seems offering it as an "add-on" to get the ability to defer or get a refund makes sense. Then people like myself who are confident they will race can not choose to pay it. People who are worried about training/life/getting pregnant (talked to a lady specifically about this one...) can enter and pick that to protect themselves.

Ryan

Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [ryans] [ In reply to ]

Jan 23, 18 14:07

Post #42 of 42 (573 views)

ryans wrote:

I have seen a couple others mention it, but one of the local races (half IM) around me has started offering a VIP package. One of the components of this package is the ability to defer to the next year no questions asked, or to drop to the sprint distance at any time. It also had a couple other benefits, but those appeared to be the big things. I was amazed at how many people took the RD up on this.

To me it seems offering it as an "add-on" to get the ability to defer or get a refund makes sense. Then people like myself who are confident they will race can not choose to pay it. People who are worried about training/life/getting pregnant (talked to a lady specifically about this one...) can enter and pick that to protect themselves.

okay. what about this. here's the cancellation policy, regardless of what you do or don't do on social media:

60 percent refund, up until some time before, a week, 2 weeks, whatever.
80 percent given to the race charity.
You're re-entered in next year's race automatically, no charge.

then, for those who sign up 3mo early, or earlier, you're considered "Potty Trained", which in my parlance means:

- you get your own transition area area, preferential bike racking, and your own deluxe potties. maybe calling it potty trained isn't the best idea. but it just ran into my head.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Our Partners

transition-DOT-area-AT-slowtwitch-DOT-com

Advertise with us

©1999-2024 Slowtwitch, Inc., and Slowtwitch.com
Reproduction of material from any Slowtwitch.com page
without written permission is strictly prohibited.