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Re: Toronto Billionaire Couple Murdered Says PI [racin_rusty]
[ In reply to ]
Fascinating story. While normally releasing details to press regarding the investigation is not a good idea, based on reading that, I can't say I blame the family. Police were incompetent, or worse, and needed a kick in the butt. But I'm not following the story except for reading that, so tell me why I am wrong.
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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev
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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev
Re: Toronto Billionaire Couple Murdered Says PI [H-]
[ In reply to ]
Even IF the police are incompetent, releasing details of the incident is in itself incompetent and compromises any on going investigation. The police aren't obligated to tell the public the truth if it interferes with an ongoing investigation. The family, may in fact be guilty of obstruction.
Re: Toronto Billionaire Couple Murdered Says PI [H-]
[ In reply to ]
H- wrote:
Fascinating story. While normally releasing details to press regarding the investigation is not a good idea, based on reading that, I can't say I blame the family. Police were incompetent, or worse, and needed a kick in the butt. But I'm not following the story except for reading that, so tell me why I am wrong.The PI just released information that could be considered "hold-back" evidence. That is evidence that is not known by the general public, and can be used to verify the legitimacy of any confessions or denials. If the police investigation is ongoing, which I would say it is based on their continued statement that these deaths are suspicious, then this is 100% obstruction and deserving of criminal charges.
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Re: Toronto Billionaire Couple Murdered Says PI [skinny]
[ In reply to ]
Why did the police call it a murder suicide?
In Canada are citizens put under a gag order during criminal investigations? So I guess reporters are not allowed to interview private citizens and family members about information related to police investigations? Can the reporters and newspaper be subject to criminal charges as well?
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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev
Quote:
I would say it is based on their continued statement that these deaths are suspicious, then this is 100% obstruction and deserving of criminal charges.In Canada are citizens put under a gag order during criminal investigations? So I guess reporters are not allowed to interview private citizens and family members about information related to police investigations? Can the reporters and newspaper be subject to criminal charges as well?
________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev
Re: Toronto Billionaire Couple Murdered Says PI [racin_rusty]
[ In reply to ]
Quote:
The family, may in fact be guilty of obstruction.How does obstruction work in Canada? If a witness observes a crime, can the police or some authority issue an order to prohibit them from telling the press what they know? Is the press prohibited from publishing it?
Edit:
Google lead me to this wikipedia entry and the following (which may or not be current Canadian law as far as I know):
Quote:
In Canada, the equivalent offence is referred to as "obstructing justice". It is set out s 139 of the Criminal Code: 139. (1) Every one who wilfully attempts in any manner to obstruct, pervert or defeat the course of justice in a judicial proceeding,
(a) by indemnifying or agreeing to indemnify a surety, in any way and either in whole or in part, or
(b) where he is a surety, by accepting or agreeing to accept a fee or any form of indemnity whether in whole or in part from or in respect of a person who is released or is to be released from custody,
is guilty of
(c) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years, or
(d) an offence punishable on summary conviction.
(2) Every one who wilfully attempts in any manner other than a manner described in subsection (1) to obstruct, pervert or defeat the course of justice is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years.
(3) Without restricting the generality of subsection (2), every one shall be deemed wilfully to attempt to obstruct, pervert or defeat the course of justice who in a judicial proceeding, existing or proposed,
(a) dissuades or attempts to dissuade a person by threats, bribes or other corrupt means from giving evidence;
(b) influences or attempts to influence by threats, bribes or other corrupt means a person in his conduct as a juror; or
(c) accepts or obtains, agrees to accept or attempts to obtain a bribe or other corrupt consideration to abstain from giving evidence, or to do or to refrain from doing anything as a juror.[6]
I suppose you and skinny are saying that this case -- reporting the conclusions of a private autopsy -- falls into the very general subsection (2). Is that enforced in cases like this in Canada? Wow.
________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev
Re: Toronto Billionaire Couple Murdered Says PI [H-]
[ In reply to ]
So are you saying that yours and my right to security of person are superseded by the freedom of expression? I'll bet you there's already case law that will clarify to you the limits. As interesting as this investigation is to us, the details will generally become available to the public in due course. There is no obligation to share this information with the public, I'd bet most reporters are aware of this and usually respect that limitation since it's not in the public's best interest to have a possible criminal running about freely in the society.
Re: Toronto Billionaire Couple Murdered Says PI [racin_rusty]
[ In reply to ]
Quote:
So are you saying that yours and my right to security of person are superseded by the freedom of expression?I am sorry for saying, "wow," which was judgmental and rude.
To the extent you'd be willing, I would like to understand more about the Canadian law of obstruction of justice as it applies to this case. This is a rather new concept to me, so lots of questions pop in my mind. Not trying to be annoying, but to illustrate my curiosity and lack of understanding, I set forth questions that pop in my mind below:
Must the person be informed by police not to release the information. For instance if a witness discovers a dead body, do police tell the witness not to discuss the details of the scene (e.g. the real estate agent who discovered the dead couple)? Or is this a basic civic duty understood by Canadians? Is the press criminally liable if it publishes such information? Is there any standard for evaluating what crime scene information falls within the rule? Would the standard be "any information that a reasonable police officer considers important to keep non-public"?
________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev
Re: Toronto Billionaire Couple Murdered Says PI [H-]
[ In reply to ]
H- wrote:
Why did the police call it a murder suicide? Quote:
I would say it is based on their continued statement that these deaths are suspicious, then this is 100% obstruction and deserving of criminal charges.In Canada are citizens put under a gag order during criminal investigations? So I guess reporters are not allowed to interview private citizens and family members about information related to police investigations? Can the reporters and newspaper be subject to criminal charges as well?
I don't recall the police ever making an official statement other than the deaths were considered suspicious. An unnamed source, possibly within the police department, stated that they were looking at the possibility of it being a murder-suicide. That doesn't mean thats what they thought it was, just that they were being thorough and looking at every possibility.
The problem is that this was not citizens. These were PI's hired by the family, several of whom are retired Toronto PD homicide investigators. They would know the damage they are potentially doing.
I wonder if the family realizes how much damage they may be doing to the investigation of their parents by hiring these PI's and releasing info like this to the media?
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Re: Toronto Billionaire Couple Murdered Says PI [H-]
[ In reply to ]
H- wrote:
I am sorry for saying, "wow," which was judgmental and rude.Are you apologizing? There is no apologizing in the Lavender Room!
Re: Toronto Billionaire Couple Murdered Says PI [H-]
[ In reply to ]
H- wrote:
Quote:
So are you saying that yours and my right to security of person are superseded by the freedom of expression?I am sorry for saying, "wow," which was judgmental and rude.
To the extent you'd be willing, I would like to understand more about the Canadian law of obstruction of justice as it applies to this case. This is a rather new concept to me, so lots of questions pop in my mind. Not trying to be annoying, but to illustrate my curiosity and lack of understanding, I set forth questions that pop in my mind below:
Must the person be informed by police not to release the information. For instance if a witness discovers a dead body, do police tell the witness not to discuss the details of the scene (e.g. the real estate agent who discovered the dead couple)? Or is this a basic civic duty understood by Canadians? Is the press criminally liable if it publishes such information? Is there any standard for evaluating what crime scene information falls within the rule? Would the standard be "any information that a reasonable police officer considers important to keep non-public"?
For the most part, I didn't care what witnesses or victims said to others, including the media. However, in certain situations with ongoing investigations and some potentially sensitive info, I would make it clear to people what the consequences could be if they spread that information. And yes, those consequences could include being charged criminally.
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Starting from scratch...
Re: Toronto Billionaire Couple Murdered Says PI [skinny]
[ In reply to ]
The problem is that this was not citizens. These were PI's hired by the family, several of whom are retired Toronto PD homicide investigators. They would know the damage they are potentially doing.
I wonder if the family realizes how much damage they may be doing to the investigation of their parents by hiring these PI's and releasing info like this to the media?
Agreed.
At some level we have to put faith in the authorities to do their jobs properly (otherwise we have a lawless society where mayhem rules). I know it's difficult for many to understand and accept this. I know that levels of trust for police and others in authority (Government etc. .) is low right now. But what do people want . . the wild west, where it is truly bedlam?
Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
I wonder if the family realizes how much damage they may be doing to the investigation of their parents by hiring these PI's and releasing info like this to the media?
Agreed.
At some level we have to put faith in the authorities to do their jobs properly (otherwise we have a lawless society where mayhem rules). I know it's difficult for many to understand and accept this. I know that levels of trust for police and others in authority (Government etc. .) is low right now. But what do people want . . the wild west, where it is truly bedlam?
Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Re: Toronto Billionaire Couple Murdered Says PI [racin_rusty]
[ In reply to ]
This family has had a good bit of drama related to inheritance, control, etc.
Remember - It's important to be comfortable in your own skin... because it turns out society frowns on wearing other people's
Remember - It's important to be comfortable in your own skin... because it turns out society frowns on wearing other people's
Re: Toronto Billionaire Couple Murdered Says PI [Guffaw]
[ In reply to ]
Yes, I've read that. Makes me think there was an ulterior motive to releasing the private investigation findings.
Re: Toronto Billionaire Couple Murdered Says PI [H-]
[ In reply to ]
H- wrote:
Police were incompetent, or worse, and needed a kick in the butt. But I'm not following the story except for reading that, so tell me why I am wrong.You're wrong because no one knows what the Police have or haven't done.
Everything that I've read has been speculation, at best.
Initially a cop (not a homicide cop, not the toronto police media people) said he thought it was a murder suicide. That's suddenly taken as gospel by everyone. It's one dude spitballing his own opinion, as I understand it.
From there people speculate that they aren't doing a thorough job despite bringing in the fire dept to check the roof and municipal employees to check the sewers etc.
I'm not passing judgement or forming an opinion on this until the actual facts are out there. In the mean time continue with your baseless speculating. Good luck with that.
Durhamskier wrote:
In the mean time continue with your baseless speculating. Good luck with that.As far as I can tell the fifteen minutes I've spent thinking about this case seem to have no effect whatsoever on my luck or day to day life 3000 or so miles from the scene of the crime. But I will cross my fingers that I don't step into a hole and twist my ankle as I head out the door to walk the dog.
________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev