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Re: What's the main benefits of the Pull Buoy [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Dev, thanks for making me examine why I use the PB so much.

1)Less "inappropriate" fatigue, meaning that I can put in many more repetitions----repetitions longer than 25-50m---- without my body limping at that weird 30ish degree angle from having a very thick lower body and a fatigued back and arms.

2)I work on mostly the same things I'd work on without one: What my arms are doing throughout the catch and pull, the timing of the hips into the overall stroke, increasing turnover without the overall stroke being disrupted, and relaxing the arms during recovery.
The best part is I don't have to concentrate super HARD (the way we triathletes sometimes try to technique too HARD and look like every muscle in our body is contracting), and can integrate all these points into a rhythm without having to stop and overthink.

3)It depends. If I use the pull buoy as a tool to accumulate quality repetitions and build mileage in a reasonable manner, then enough work is done over time that I really notice its effects on non-buoy and non-wetsuit swimming. If I'm just throwing it on occasionally and using it to stay afloat rather than target the above points---and not putting my stroke technique through meaningful repetitions----then it will do nothing except take about 5sec off my pool 100's.

4)Right now, when I'm very unfit for swimming, 2/3-7/8 of total mileage. When swim fit (enough quality mileage has been accumulated), maybe 1/2, possibly creeping up to 2/3 if I was getting tired towards late season or in a big build.

5)Left to my own devices, maybe 1 in 10 workouts would be kick-focused. When I worked with Jonnyo, pretty sure it was zero. Also pretty sure that he had the right of it, and that I was wasting 1 in 10 workouts. He integrated any kick work very, very well into any workout, and never at the expense of accomplishing what needed to be accomplished.

6)I'll kick in wetsuit races. I find that the work done with the pull buoy actually enhances my kick when I swim without it, possibly because of how I was taught to use it to improve hip timing and power. It really seemed to allow me to bring a 6-beat in relatively easy when I needed to bridge up in a race, then switch back to light 4 or 2 when back in a pack.

7)Having fairly big legs and a large butt, I'm going to do some serious sinking in a non-wetsuit race, but when properly conditioned can maintain a good enough body position to not be completely fried after the swim. I generally came out of the water in non-wetsuit swims with the same group I'd exit wetsuit-legal swims with.

Thanks again. Please take with a grain of salt; I started floundering about the pool at age 19, and about a decade and a half later 54 was my best IM split thanks to a great year with Jonnyo (was 59-1:01 before him). I use an Incredibuoy: two cylinder-and-strap buoys duct taped together. I find the strap-and-cylinder lets you keep your legs together-----unlike solid single buoys----which from what I've found translates much better to the toy-less swim stroke.
Last edited by: NateChampness: Jan 15, 18 10:14
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Re: What's the Point of the Pull Buoy [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Can I ask you what we should to to focus on in terms of proper hip rotation with the buoy and keep timing good? I agree that more swimming and harder swimming of all kind regardless of tools will add up.

I guess it depends on your stroke. what i do see happening is that with the pb people manage to twist their hips less, and of course their hips are higher in the water , and because they have to think a bit less about that they have more time to think when their hips should start to turn in relation to where they are with their hands going through the water . so i guess the answer is timing and stability as cues.

to focus a bit on variations
I would have 2 strokes , a crusing stroke that is long and more hip driven and a more windmill stroke in at the start, in bigger bunches, and choppier water and around buoyes which is much more shoulder driven. so usually when i do pull work i focus more on a crusing speed that uses as little energy as possible for the speed i go and the right hip timing ( also AOS swimmer ) and when i go faster my hips are not nearly as important and i actually kick more . but especially in Ironamn races I would say i am abut 75% in cruise mode and i find swimming with a pb very similar than swimming in a wetsuit.
I live in a country were all the races are wetsuit swims in fact i have never done an oly in non wetsuit so for me i put most off my eggs in swiming the best i can in a wetsuit if i was to live in florida that would change and I would defo do more kicking.

i used to train with a guy that was a pretty solid swimmer as a child 4.10 for 400m when i swam with him free i pretty much have to draft him to stay with him and it hurts . if we swim paddle and pb i would gap him by half a lenght over 400. and usually i would beat him in the open water. he uses more legs i more arms.
the thing is there is really very little incentive to swim faster than 53 min unless i cycle sub 4.30 in an IM so iam better of to spend more energy training for the run.
so what iam trying to say a lot in this discussion here is not neccecarily about the swim but what is best in triathlon .
if i was a swimmer i would kick like a maniac as a triathlete i dont need it as i control my speed more with the arms this is not the only way and for many people i do recommend more kick if their stroke demands it.
For instance i love the stuff tallswimmer writes yet at the same time as a swimmer if you can cruise 100m in 1,10 you are there in the ironman races so it is a bit different what swimmers need and what triathletes need. its not so much about speed but energy conversation you dont really win a trathlon in the swim ( unfortunatley i would say) so you have to have the pic picture as much in mind as the swim.
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Re: What's the Point of the Pull Buoy [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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1) benefits of pull buoy are that it allows you to isolate your arms while keeping proper body position

2) work on good catch and pull strength mainly. I usually use buoy and paddles together

3) yes, especially with regard to strength work

4) 90+%, usually I'll do a little during warm-up if nothing else

5) none in a long time

6) I have a steady 2 or 3 beat kick for long distance swimming, regardless of wetsuit

7) no idea on this one, I only do tri. I believe that all USA swimming open water races are no wetsuit, but no idea for anywhere else
Last edited by: imswimmer328: Jan 15, 18 14:36
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Re: What's the main benefits of the Pull Buoy [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Dev, How's it going 'eh? :-)

I haven't used a PB in maybe 25 years. To each their own. My kick is barely propulsive, My ankles don't plantar flex very well. In my case, at least I have decent symmetry and body position.

I call my swim "decent enough," I certainly have room for improvement, but, I can't see a PB being the tool/toy that facilitates much improvement (in my case)

peace

I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________
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Re: What's the main benefits of the Pull Buoy [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Main benefit is alternating between say 100s(100 with, 100 wo) early in season keeps heart rate low and gradually gets upper body acclimated. Easy to overdue and get hr too high as many don't wear hr monitors in pool.
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Re: What's the main benefits of the Pull Buoy [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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The pull buoy is a great piece of equipment.

The specific thing I think it helps with the most is hand speed, which can be severely limited by the kick. Having a slow, poorly formed, or poorly timed kick will screw up your hand speed. The pull buoy forces you to learn how to move the hands faster. This is not entirely distinct from stroke rate, but not really the same thing either.

In a general sense, it can teach you all the good things your body will subconsciously pick up on by simply swimming with good body position. Instead of using the arms to compensate for the "falling off a log" of "stepping over the edge" feeling, you can use them to create propulsion.

For triathletes, it can spare the legs during periods of heavy bike/run training.
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Re: What's the main benefits of the Pull Buoy [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I will answer your questions based upon my rather uneducated opinion/understanding.

What are the benefits you see using a pull buoy?

Building strength and power, or to really isolate/focus on my catch during drills (1arm and catch up), or during sculling.

What do you work on when you use it?

Strength, isolating my catch, or getting my feel for the water (sculling).



Does that work transfer to swimming without it?

I think so.



How often do you use it (what percent of workouts)?

Are you asking what percent of my swimming is spent with a pull bouy? I am not sure. If I had to guess, I would say maybe 10% of my yardage. More in the base season, less in the build and race season. My masters class often includes a 300 pull during warm up, but rarely uses a buoy during the main set.


Or, are you asking what percent of my workouts include a pull bouy at all? I would say 80% of my workouts include some pulling, again, often just in the warmup. During base season I use it more to build strength and power, but less in the build.



What percent of your workouts are kick oriented?
Again, are you asking what percent of my swimming is spent doing isolated kicking? I shoot for at least 500 every workout, and usually do 3k workouts, so greater than 1/6th. I like to vary the speed of my kicking and do some really hard kicking, along with some recovery kicking.



Or, are you asking what percent of my workouts are kick focused workouts? If this is the question then zero. My Masters class, which I take once per week never does a kick focused workout, and rarely kicks at all. I mentioned this to the coach and she said she doesn't have us do a lot of kicking because people hate it. I responded the fact that people hate it is the exact reason why we should do more kicking. As a result, this year she has increased the amount of kicking and doesn't let the rest of the team forget I am the reason we are kicking haha... Outside of masters, I include one kick set in almost every workout I do, but I would not describe the workout as kick focused. That said, I only swim 3-4 times per week. If I were swimming 6+ times a week, I would probably make one of those sessions dedicated to kicking.



Do you "not kick" in wetsuit races?

I kick in wet-suit races.



How do you find no wetsuit open water races?
I have never done a no wetsuit open water race, but have done some of my OW swimming with no wet suit. I suspect a no wet suit TRI would be a relative advantage for me vs. the field, but I am not sure. We have a race here in Southern Wisconsin, The Big Swell. They have a wetsuit and a no wet suit division. The no wet suit race is won by ex-college swimmers who swim 5 minutes faster over 2.4 than the winner of the wet suit division. I have only done it once, but that was in prep for a wet suit legal iron man so I did the wet suit division. In that race, I would have gotten my ass kicked by real swimmers :)


---


I have a lot to learn WRT swimming and a lot to improve, but it just hasn't been my focus. I think with some serious swim focus I could take my IM swim from 1:03 to 0:55, but I also think I could take my 3:30 run down to sub 3:10, so there is just a lot more to gain on the run than the swim. The bike is probably similar to the run. With that in mind, I have a hard time putting the time and energy into the swim I would need to make a big jump as I feel my bike and run have potentially bigger gains.



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Re: What's the main benefits of the Pull Buoy [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Dev,


My goal in swim training is to swim as fast as I can with as little energy expended as possible. Especially as the race duration gets longer, the balance between speed and energy expended becomes more crucial.

I believe that using a pull buoy allows a swimmer to isolate and focus more effectively on the front end of their stroke. This can help in improving the coupling energy of the shoulders and hips. Used with paddles it can strengthen the muscles utilized to drive your stroke.

Is the kick important? Sure but as the distance increases kicking is used more for stability than for propulsion. Those large leg muscles consume an enormous amount of energy for a small return in speed. Again, what is the cost/benefit balance. It can be important to have a good kick in order to bridge gaps and sometimes just to maintain contact when racing. But you have to be careful not to burn too many matches.

Pull buoys can be used in a variety of ways in swim WO's. With paddles, you get immediate feedback on mechanics that need to improve. I think the amount they are used depends on an athlete's ability and the timing of the season.

When I train in a pool with a buoy and paddles my stroke rate slows down and without a strong kick, I go slower. I am a faster swimmer without the gear, but using the gear has helped me to improve my stroke thru the years. I believe I am a more efficient swimmer now than I was many years ago when I would simply bull my way through the water.

Steve
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Re: What's the main benefits of the Pull Buoy [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Dev, I hate to quibble but it should be "are"; "What ARE the main benefits of the pull buoy?" :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: What's the main benefits of the Pull Buoy [NateChampness] [ In reply to ]
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hey funny timing, I was in 'your lane' Sunday night, hadn't been to pool on a Sunday night in a long time. Thought of you as I happily swam w
PB for 100% of my swim :). Had a good swim. Hope all is well with you.

To answer Dev questions -

I use PB a lot, maybe 75% of time. Because it's easier and I'm a bit lazy.... I think being a bit lazy is the part that translates well back into swimming - learning to relax what you don't need, do as little work as possible, and cut out all the 'make work junk' that a lot of us do with our strokes. When I feel like working harder I swim short & fast or add paddles. Note: I'm not adult onset, swam as a kid & coach a local age group swim team. The club kids kick a lot, I use PB with them as load variable, for them it adds significant amount of work. they might do 8x100 fins/snork/pads week 1 of a build, 16x50 snork/pads week 2, and week 3 might be 2x(12x25 snork/fins, 3x100 pads/pull).

I barely train kick specifically , maybe 200-300m 3x/week, maybe 50% of that free kick, 30% BK and 10% each Fl/Br. I do spend some time every swim with a just a snorkel working on body position, that helps with being able to not kick a lot and not use PB either (see - lazy!).

Yes I kick in wetsuit swims - but only really my left leg, not sure why, probably has to do with breathing to the left, and favouring a right arm pull. Sometimes I'll switch but it's not as fast on the other side. Turns out counter clockwise swims seem to work well for me. I train my kick for wetsuit swims by swimming in a wetsuit May-July. If the lake is too warm in August, I'll swim w a PB.
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Re: What's the main benefits of the Pull Buoy [LauraM] [ In reply to ]
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LauraM wrote:
hey funny timing, I was in 'your lane' Sunday night, hadn't been to pool on a Sunday night in a long time. Thought of you as I happily swam w
PB for 100% of my swim :). Had a good swim. Hope all is well with you.

To answer Dev questions -

I use PB a lot, maybe 75% of time. Because it's easier and I'm a bit lazy.... I think being a bit lazy is the part that translates well back into swimming - learning to relax what you don't need, do as little work as possible, and cut out all the 'make work junk' that a lot of us do with our strokes. When I feel like working harder I swim short & fast or add paddles. Note: I'm not adult onset, swam as a kid & coach a local age group swim team. The club kids kick a lot, I use PB with them as load variable, for them it adds significant amount of work. they might do 8x100 fins/snork/pads week 1 of a build, 16x50 snork/pads week 2, and week 3 might be 2x(12x25 snork/fins, 3x100 pads/pull).

I barely train kick specifically , maybe 200-300m 3x/week, maybe 50% of that free kick, 30% BK and 10% each Fl/Br. I do spend some time every swim with a just a snorkel working on body position, that helps with being able to not kick a lot and not use PB either (see - lazy!).

Yes I kick in wetsuit swims - but only really my left leg, not sure why, probably has to do with breathing to the left, and favouring a right arm pull. Sometimes I'll switch but it's not as fast on the other side. Turns out counter clockwise swims seem to work well for me. I train my kick for wetsuit swims by swimming in a wetsuit May-July. If the lake is too warm in August, I'll swim w a PB.

I think you nailed it about kicking left for breathing left and pulling hard with the right arm!

Coming back to this thread in general, In yesterday's swim I started with 16x100m alternating pull buoy and none.

I used this one:




You can put this one through the ankles or crotch, so what I did was 100 nothing, 100 with it in between legs, lifting my core, 100 without, 100 between ankles having to actively hold up my core (like a plank) and keep hips high and not allowing them to sag (other wise belly ends up dragging low below shoulder and below ankles like a hammock creating more drag. I did some of this with large Tyr paddles with middle finger strap only some without paddles....the yellow ones below....I did not know there was an XL....will have to get a pair:




Hip rotation was actually fine now that I was thinking about it. I'll do this 2-3x per week (out of my 7x swims per week) and report back. Definitely more oxygen available for upper body to work harder
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Re: What's the Point of the Pull Buoy [treyedr] [ In reply to ]
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If your body position is so bad that the buoy lifting up your hips helps more than the lack of kicking slows you down you will go faster. Most people with bad position can't kick either. I used to be ~5s faster with a buoy and now I am about even, meaning I have improved my position a lot but still have a ways to go because as you pointed out, you SHOULD go slower with a buoy.

My only other contribution to this thread is I thought it was "pool buoy" for over a year. Sorry, I'm a triathlete.
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Re: What's the Point of the Pull Buoy [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I'm a strong swimmer and never really used a pull buoy a lot until about 8 years ago. I don't use a strong kick for my swim, and in any event prefer to use a light kick to save my legs for the bike and run. My kick is primarily for rhythm, not propulsion. When I swim with a wetsuit (most of the time in races), the buoyancy of the suit floats my legs just fine so there's no alignment issues. So, I decided to replicate that effect by training with a pull buoy. Now I do 75% of my workout length with a pull buoy. I experience no issues when I go to a wetsuit swim. If I know I'm heading for a non wetsuit swim, I simply reduce the amount of training with the pull buoy. Works fine for me. But if you are not an accomplished swimmer with good technique going in, it's not going to help you to overdo the buoy.
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Re: What's the Point of the Pull Buoy [wylie] [ In reply to ]
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I do 100% workout with a pullbouy and yes that's bad. Allows me to get more mileage in and all my races are wetsuit legal. Oddly I have a soft kick even with the bouy to allow rotation. When I'm feeling super lazy I grab paddles too. The horror!
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Re: What's the main benefits of the Pull Buoy [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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  1. What are the benefits you see using a pull buoy?

    • it is closer to wetsuit swimming than non-PB-swimming. Most of racing is wetsuit-swimming
    • With PB and little to no kick, I feel like I am more aware of proper body rotation and core stability
    • It reveals asymmetries in my stroke that I usually compensate for with a bit of a scissor kick
  2. What do you work on when you use it?

    • getting kicking down to zero (band)
    • feeling like a plank in the water with no sideways swing in the hips or legs
    • feeling a certain drive in my stroke coming from the hips
  3. Does that work transfer to swimming without it?

    • is there really ever a way to tell the cause and effect of individual measures in such a complex system where you can never fix all other variables?
  4. How often do you use it (what percent of workouts)?

    • A lot, usually ~50% of every workout
  5. What percent of your workouts are kick oriented?

    • I do some kicking during warmup. No Board. Arms pointing straight back at my sides, arching my back, lifting head every so often to breathe.
  6. Do you "not kick" in wetsuit races?

    • It feels like I don't - which probably equates to some kicking - more for balace than for propulsion.
  7. How do you find no wetsuit open water races?

    • Not bad as I think my PB regime actually improves my stroke and I still feel like I do enough non-PB swimming to be ready for non-WS races.

Rem.: I always find it helpful to have an idea of people's ability level when reading these kinds of N=1 posts.
In that spirit: I am usually a ~27min 70.3 wetsuit swimmer and a ~59min Ironman wetsuit swimmer. Adult onset swimmer obviously and for the last 2,3 years have dialed down swimming to 2/3 times a week to maintain that level (and have more time for B/R)

if you can read this
YOU'RE DRAFTING!
Last edited by: flogazo: Jan 17, 18 1:10
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Re: What's the main benefits of the Pull Buoy [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Allows triathletes to think they aren't overtraining the bike and run.

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
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Re: What's the Point of the Pull Buoy [AutomaticJack] [ In reply to ]
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AutomaticJack wrote:
http://www.usms.org/...display.php?aid=3044

As far as what percent of your workout it should be used in, I don't really know, and different coaches do different things. Personally, as soon as someone can swim with an ankle strap without beating the water into submission, I have them switch to that and the pull buoy is never seen again. In that case somewhere between 10 and 15% of total distance.

On the other hand, I read an article last summer (and can't find it now) that suggested that older swimmers and beginners do their warm up with a buoy to relieve stress on the shoulders until they are loosened up. Kind of makes sense, but I've never seen that done.

^^^This^^^

NCCP certified Comp coach
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Re: What's the main benefits of the Pull Buoy [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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SnappingT wrote:
Allows triathletes to think they aren't overtraining the bike and run.

Good one! :-)

I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________
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Re: What's the main benefits of the Pull Buoy [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Triathlete crack...


1. Isolating the arm stroke. For me I know it's becoming a dog's breakfast when I can hear my elbows drop as they enter the water.
2. Stroke technique: finishing stroke to its end, maintaining high elbows during the pull phase.
3. Yes, IF I'm paying attention and just using it as recovery and junk yards.
4. Usually about 15%. Sometimes as high as 25% depending upon the time of year.
5. Usually 10%. Sometimes as high as 20% if shoulders are screaming at me.
6. I kick in wetsuit races...probably more so because of the extra flotation.
7. I prefer no wetsuit for open water races & tris. Add in some nice swells & chop to make the cyclists piss their suits.

#swimmingmatters
Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
The Doctor (#12)

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Re: What's the Point of the Pull Buoy [tallswimmer] [ In reply to ]
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tallswimmer wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
This forum is mainly populated by us adult athletes who did not grow up swimming and took it up largely swim because we have to in order to complete the swim to do a triathlon. For us getting to the pool is not that easy in most cases (it is easy for me, now, was not for 17 years) and we don't have a ton of time in the pool anyway. I have a bunch of questions and interested in the range of answers:

  1. What are the benefits you see using a pull buoy?
  2. What do you work on when you use it?
  3. Does that work transfer to swimming without it?
  4. How often do you use it (what percent of workouts)?
  5. What percent of your workouts are kick oriented?
  6. Do you "not kick" in wetsuit races?
  7. How do you find no wetsuit open water races?

1 - It's awesome.
2 - Yes
3 - Sometimes
4 - Every workout
5 - not as much as i should anymore 10% should be 20%
6 - Dunno - never used a wetsuit
7 - See 6

In all seriousness - the pull buoy is great for isolating arms, and strengthening the pull. For low-in-the-water swimmers, it can also help to reinforce the feeling of riding higher, once body position and kick are re-tuned. These days, because I just swim for fitness, not to race or anything, I use my pull buoy and paddles almost every workout, because I love the feel. I could just cruise that way forever (add a snorkel if it was long course).

OK, this week I did a bit more pull work and have been working with this one:



Which you can put in between legs, like a traditional buoy or you can do it like shown here and hold your core in a plank with it around the ankles and not let the belly sag like a hammock.

On three of the swims, was alternating 100's with nothing, then buoy between legs, then nothing, then buoy holding ankles (so 4) multiplied by 4 before I get into doing other sets (mainly focused on individual medley training. What do you think about this buoy and the option to have it around ankles? In any case, I do appreciate that alternating, you get immediate feedback if you let your core sag when going back to swimming with no buoy.
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Re: What's the Point of the Pull Buoy [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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That thing looks like a cheat. Either use a band, or use a regular buoy lose in your ankles.

I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html
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Re: What's the Point of the Pull Buoy [tallswimmer] [ In reply to ]
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tallswimmer wrote:
That thing looks like a cheat. Either use a band, or use a regular buoy lose in your ankles.

I have not done much band pull (no buoy) recently, but did a ton last year. I agree it is easier than both the options you suggested, but it is also different in that your feet stay up without having to clench a buoy back there between the ankles so you can focus on keeping your core tight and not sagging. It is definitely a lot easier than pure band pull (no buoy). I'll alternate a bunch of 100's today using band only, then nothing then this buoy holding up ankles and report back.

Also "regular buoy lose"....that means I have to get one of those with strings.....my pool only has the single styrofoam piece!
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Re: What's the Point of the Pull Buoy [tallswimmer] [ In reply to ]
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tallswimmer wrote:
That thing looks like a cheat. Either use a band, or use a regular buoy lose in your ankles.

Actually, i've used one of these little yellow devils before; IIRC, it was a part of ST testing program about 4 yrs ago. That yellow thing on your ankles is 4-5 sec/100 yd slower than regular swim; I could literally feel it dragging the water in the middle section between your feet. When i tried it betw the legs like a reg buoy, it was 2-3 sec/100 slower and i could feel the underwater section dragging big time. In sum, i hated it, swam with it once and now it's up on a shelf in my closet with a few other rarely used swim tools. FWIW, my times swimming and pulling withe reg PB are pretty much dead even, just obv more work by the upper body with the PB.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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