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Re: Blood Lactate Test vs FTP like I am a 3 year old [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Andy, what a ridiculous thing to do....why are you inverting the statement. Not really debating is it...

The extract explicity states FTP....not LTP.

If you are concerned about the energy pathway used in assessing LTP, dont be....it's the lactate system ;-), you can read more from the authors I stated and you noted.

Right...back to your extract please
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Re: Blood Lactate Test vs FTP like I am a 3 year old [Simon C] [ In reply to ]
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You didn't answer my question. What was your point in quoting that part of the paper?
Last edited by: Andrew Coggan: Feb 5, 18 9:14
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Re: Blood Lactate Test vs FTP like I am a 3 year old [Simon C] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew Coggan wrote:
BTW, is this you/your company?

http://cpsinmotion.com

You also haven't answered this question.
Last edited by: Andrew Coggan: Feb 5, 18 9:48
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Re: Blood Lactate Test vs FTP like I am a 3 year old [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Functional threshold power (FTP) is the maximum average power sustained over a 1-hour

period, which is estimated through 8- or 20-min self-paced cycling protocols by subtracting
10% or 5% of the average power achieved after each respective cycling test. Although there
is a lack of evidence demonstrating the utility of FTP testing for tailored exercise prescription
aimed at improving cycling performance, FTP seems an important performance quality, as
maximum power sustained over one hour is predictive of time-trial performance in elite
cyclists (9). Also, professional and recreational cyclists routinely complete FTP testing and
its utilization for individualized exercise programing are endorsed in popular written work by
ex-professional cyclists and coaches (1, 7). Despite the increasing use of FTP in practice, the
energy systems and physiological qualities that contribute to FTP are incompletely
understood.



Yes, both highlighted sections confirm it's tenous nature.


There seems to be a glut of ill-informed individuals on here. Misinformation is a bad thing...it stifles progression.


However that is easily overcome by research and reading.


Investigation into lactate testing has been over decades, starting in runners...long before power meters existed, and the main protagonists were the Germans in the 70's who understood the science better and its application. How do you think FTP works in runners/ swimmers and rowers....? answer: it doesn't.


There has been plenty of scrutiny of LT thresholds concept....and has now come into its own element, which can be progressed further for advanced knowledge, understanding and application. For that endeavour to have to challenge the likes of a symptom of the modern worlds impatience and temporary nature or attitude towards change, is an embarrasment more than anything. I implore those here to read on the vast literature available...it is simply eye opening what has been learnt and will be discovered. That won't be abreviated into a simple point estimate....that is retardation of learning.


This is another attempt at the future....http://www.pkvitality.com/ktrack-athlete/


Those who fail to understand will be left behind..


Over-and-out. peace.
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Re: Blood Lactate Test vs FTP like I am a 3 year old [Simon C] [ In reply to ]
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Umm, sorry to break this to you, but the concept behind FTP (threshold power) has been used in swimming for decades, just substituting "pace" for "power" since conditions in the pool are relatively consistent, particularly if you are always training in the same pool, so power measurements aren't really accomplishing much unless you try to incorporate that data in some very novel ways. Different coaches have different implementations of the test sets to come up with your threshold pace, but they are all designed to do pretty much what FTP does. CSS (Critical Swim Speed) is one such measure. When I was in college one of my coaches had us do a far more painful version of this test. (100's on descending off times, reducing the off time by 1s per repeat, until you can't make any more). Subsequent training gets based around the results of those tests. It works because it's based on what you can actually do.

Pretty sure running coaches do similar things.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Blood Lactate Test vs FTP like I am a 3 year old [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry to break it to you too.....but pace is an objective determinant of effort is it?

here's a clue: power is,......heart rate isn't, pace isn't. Pace isn't influenced by other factors?

this forum needs to get back to first principles before trying to iron out the nitty gritty
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Re: Blood Lactate Test vs FTP like I am a 3 year old [Simon C] [ In reply to ]
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Simon C wrote:
Quote:
Functional threshold power (FTP) is the maximum average power sustained over a 1-hour

period, which is estimated through 8- or 20-min self-paced cycling protocols by subtracting
10% or 5% of the average power achieved after each respective cycling test. Although there
is a lack of evidence demonstrating the utility of FTP testing for tailored exercise prescription
aimed at improving cycling performance, FTP seems an important performance quality, as
maximum power sustained over one hour is predictive of time-trial performance in elite
cyclists (9). Also, professional and recreational cyclists routinely complete FTP testing and
its utilization for individualized exercise programing are endorsed in popular written work by
ex-professional cyclists and coaches (1, 7). Despite the increasing use of FTP in practice, the
energy systems and physiological qualities that contribute to FTP are incompletely
understood.



Yes, both highlighted sections confirm it's tenous nature.


There seems to be a glut of ill-informed individuals on here. Misinformation is a bad thing...it stifles progression.


However that is easily overcome by research and reading.


Investigation into lactate testing has been over decades, starting in runners...long before power meters existed, and the main protagonists were the Germans in the 70's who understood the science better and its application. How do you think FTP works in runners/ swimmers and rowers....? answer: it doesn't.


There has been plenty of scrutiny of LT thresholds concept....and has now come into its own element, which can be progressed further for advanced knowledge, understanding and application. For that endeavour to have to challenge the likes of a symptom of the modern worlds impatience and temporary nature or attitude towards change, is an embarrasment more than anything. I implore those here to read on the vast literature available...it is simply eye opening what has been learnt and will be discovered. That won't be abreviated into a simple point estimate....that is retardation of learning.


This is another attempt at the future....http://www.pkvitality.com/ktrack-athlete/


Those who fail to understand will be left behind..


Over-and-out. peace.

Well, at least gives everyone a better idea of where you're coming from...too bad so much of it is incorrect.

1. The notion of a lactate threshold actually dates back to the 1930s, when it was first identified/described as such by Owles.

2. Although the Germans attempted to leverage measurement of blood lactate concentrations in 1970s to improve training outcomes, there is really no evidence that this was successful (although German doping surely was).

3. The concept of using performance measurements as a basis for training prescription applies to all sports, not just cycling. Jack Daniels, for example, has long designed training programs for runners based on their results in competition. Others have devised specific tests, e.g.,: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16095403. Cycling is also not the only sport in which power can be measured, e.g., rowers have long had access to ergometer data, and now numerous on-boat products exist or are underdevelopment. Finally, at least one nation has embraced the power-based training metrics I have put forth, including FTP, and applied them to rowing (although ironically, not the country that paid me as a consultant).
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Re: Blood Lactate Test vs FTP like I am a 3 year old [Simon C] [ In reply to ]
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Simon C wrote:
pace is an objective determinant of effort is it?

I think you actually mean "intensity", and yes, it is, at least as long as environmental conditions (resistive forces) are constant. This is why pace (speed) generally works quite well as an indicator of intensity for swimmers, runners (at least on level terrain), and even (indoor) track cyclists.
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Re: Blood Lactate Test vs FTP like I am a 3 year old [Simon C] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew Coggan wrote:
BTW, is this you/your company?

http://cpsinmotion.com

Are you ever going to answer this question?
Last edited by: Andrew Coggan: Feb 5, 18 11:35
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Re: Blood Lactate Test vs FTP like I am a 3 year old [Simon C] [ In reply to ]
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Simon C wrote:
Sorry to break it to you too.....but pace is an objective determinant of effort is it?

here's a clue: power is,......heart rate isn't, pace isn't. Pace isn't influenced by other factors?

this forum needs to get back to first principles before trying to iron out the nitty gritty

I'd say that effort is a determinant of pace. In the pool, for a given individual, pace is primarily determined by effort. That's why coaches carry stopwatches.

Look up USRPT when you have a chance. That particular training paradigm is about nothing BUT pace, specifically training at the pace you'll race at.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Blood Lactate Test vs FTP like I am a 3 year old [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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http://www.weba-sport.com/...s/oar-power-meter-en

One time I made a lightweight aerodynamic hat for a rower (single skull) ...... and he had his boat outfitted to record power and a little device in the water for speed.

He ended up not using it .... but I thought it might buy him a bit of speed (if it was legal) when rowing into a strong headwind.

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster
Last edited by: nealhe: Feb 5, 18 14:26
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Re: Blood Lactate Test vs FTP like I am a 3 year old [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not going to enter the argument of FTP or Lactate and the validity/usefulness/acceptance blah blah blah.

But I'm going to question this quote - "the Australian Institute of Sports, have largely replaced lactate testing (and other physiological monitoring) with performance monitoring.*
*Well, at least if you believe their textbook, Physiological Testing of Elite Athletes... which I was tasked with reviewing. "


I have that book open in front of me and would love to see where in this book they're saying lactate testing has largely been replaced by performance monitoring? They have an entire chapter addressing blood lactate and also include taking a blood sample for lactate in almost all of their testing protocols across rowing, swimming, cycling and running.
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Re: Blood Lactate Test vs FTP like I am a 3 year old [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew Coggan wrote:
Andrew Coggan wrote:
BTW, is this you/your company?

http://cpsinmotion.com


Are you ever going to answer this question?


Post #120, of this thread, he started it by saying "Indeed". I assumed this was him answering the above question. If true, it will be the only concise answer he has given throughout this discussion
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Re: Blood Lactate Test vs FTP like I am a 3 year old [BennyHTri] [ In reply to ]
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See the chapter on cycling in the 2nd edition. (I'll check the copy that I was given to review tomorrow, when I am back in my office.)
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Re: Blood Lactate Test vs FTP like I am a 3 year old [eye3md] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks. I see now that it appears he was acknowledging who he was/is.

Not really that important, of course, but it does make his comments about an "FTP industry" seem rather hypocritical/disingenuous.
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Re: Blood Lactate Test vs FTP like I am a 3 year old [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew Coggan wrote:
Thanks. I see now that it appears he was acknowledging who he was/is.
Have you noticed Simon C uses some odd language constructions and words in unusual ways? It made me wonder if the posts were computer generated.
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Re: Blood Lactate Test vs FTP like I am a 3 year old [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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sciguy wrote:
Andrew Coggan wrote:
BTW, is this you/your company?

http://cpsinmotion.com


Hey I see they do pedaling analysis and advice via SpinScan so they have to be a top notch group;)

Some real evidence based science right there :)

Hamish Ferguson: Cycling Coach
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Re: Blood Lactate Test vs FTP like I am a 3 year old [BennyHTri] [ In reply to ]
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BennyHTri wrote:
I'm not going to enter the argument of FTP or Lactate and the validity/usefulness/acceptance blah blah blah.

But I'm going to question this quote - "the Australian Institute of Sports, have largely replaced lactate testing (and other physiological monitoring) with performance monitoring.*
*Well, at least if you believe their textbook, Physiological Testing of Elite Athletes... which I was tasked with reviewing. "


I have that book open in front of me and would love to see where in this book they're saying lactate testing has largely been replaced by performance monitoring? They have an entire chapter addressing blood lactate and also include taking a blood sample for lactate in almost all of their testing protocols across rowing, swimming, cycling and running.

Top of page 301:

"Indeed, the physiological assessment of high-performance track sprint cyclists in Australia has now largely moved to field-based activities that are incorporated into the yearly training program."



My review of the book can be found on pages 29-30 here:

http://www.the-aps.org/...nt/2013/February.pdf
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Re: Blood Lactate Test vs FTP like I am a 3 year old [Simon C] [ In reply to ]
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Simon C wrote:
There seems to be a glut of ill-informed individuals on here. Misinformation is a bad thing...it stifles progression.


However that is easily overcome by research and reading.


For those of us who understand how field based testing of the cyclist has superseded most lab based tests, perhaps you care to share the research you have performed.

This is amusing...

http://www.whichtrainingcamp.com/find-a-coach/cycling-coaches/simon-clark


Quote:
He concurs with the likes of Coggan, Friel and Allen in the fundamentals of performance cycling, and constantly appraises the sound principles of sports science. In early 2015 he met with the infamous Prof. Tim Noakes for a chat, and constantly keeps abreast of the many commercial and academic Human Performance Labs, English Institute of Sport and British Cycling performance training activities.


Might want to update that section.

Hamish Ferguson: Cycling Coach
Last edited by: Kiwicoach: Feb 6, 18 9:26
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Re: Blood Lactate Test vs FTP like I am a 3 year old [asgelle] [ In reply to ]
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asgelle wrote:
Andrew Coggan wrote:
Thanks. I see now that it appears he was acknowledging who he was/is.

Have you noticed Simon C uses some odd language constructions and words in unusual ways? It made me wonder if the posts were computer generated.
It doesn't take a computer to come up with a string of insults with some random ellipsis.

"How could you make that terrible assertion....you clearly aren't as smart as me....

obviously...you're not the expert you think you are <insert expert's name you want to piss off>....

I don't know why I even bother posting here...."

The guy is trolling like mad.
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