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Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]
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The availability of nearly unlimited money I think is by far the reason for skyrocketing tuition. The colleges know the students can pay for it and the students have to because any non trade job that has any real earning potential requires one. Even if it has nothing to do with the job. It’s just a prescan in a resume to not be kicked out of the applicant pool.

If you limit the amount you can take out with student loans, the tuition will have to adjust because schools won’t be able to fill seats.

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Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]
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oldandslow wrote:


Fallacy of the excluded middle. Inequities-yes, No policies should ever address it. Inequities-No, then any policy is okay.

Eh my sisters and I were part of that excluded middle. My parents made a little better than what was needed to qualify for grant money at the time but couldn't rub two pennies together so had zero savings for college. Thankfully in the late 90's tuition was just turning into a problem; I worked my ass off in HS so got a number of scholarships for the first few years' and I graduated when interest rates were rock bottom so all told I only had $26K in debt. But tuition went from $18K freshman year to $26K senior year (2002) and now, just fifteen years later, it's $70K. That is sickening.

EDIT: just realized you weren't talking about 'excluded middle' in terms of income class. That said I didn't say there weren't solutions, I pointed out community colleges, scholarship programs and grants. Now it's even more robust with the online options. Throwing federal money into the mix was the absolute LAST thing that should've ever been done, imo.

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Very debatable. You and I don't have access to the parallel universe in which grants and loans didn't exist. Our present wealth/education/opportunity gaps fully explain growing inequality, and have arguably been mitigated in small ways by increased access that grants and loans afforded. It might have come crashing down earlier in that parallel universe, but we can't know.

http://www.nber.org/chapters/c13711.pdf
https://www.newyorkfed.org/...ff_reports/sr733.pdf

This has been studied. What's most troublesome to me is that there's a clear correlation between increasing student aid money and tuition, something around $0.50-0.60 for every dollar in unsubsidized loan money. But that's doubly harmful to the kids who have to take out the loans: not only are they hit with the bigger sticker price of tuition, every dollar of increased tuition reprsents an increase in the loan they need to take out. You wanna talk about income inequality? How about low-middle and middle-class students leaving school $200K in debt when their poor and rich counterparts are debt-free...
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You are right, that is a shit solution. Radically reduce access to all poor and middle-class families, and hope that the small drops in cost suddenly allow better access than now???? Yikes, stick to online teaching ideas....

I didn't say radically, in fact I said slowly roll back federal aid money. Yes, it'd suck, but let me ask you: what's YOUR solution? This is an issue on the cost side of the house, nothing but removing the inflationary impact will do anything but mask (or compound) the issue.
Last edited by: Brownie28: Dec 7, 17 15:20
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Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]
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I'd happily pay more taxes for the good of my country. But they're raising my taxes to give Trump and Co. a cut? Plus borrow another trillion and give that to the richest. What's the point?
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Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [Cavechild] [ In reply to ]
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Actually Harvard's endowment is over 37B, that's a lot of brick...
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Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]
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oldandslow wrote:
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They’re working on making free for the actual students, but the liberal policies on education have only made the cost go through the roof.



Lots of ideas from various libs, many are debated. You can go ahead and find fault with them, but I'm not hearing solutions from you. At this point, there are only crickets on the GOP side. Brownie's point was not that libs were pushing bad ideas, it was that they were wholly indifferent to the issue (which is false).

The GOP is saying that not everyone *needs* or *should* receive a college education. The world needs plumbers, painters, electricians, etc. and trade schools would better serve A LOT of students. BTW plumbers, roofers, and HVAC techs in my neck of the woods are clearing six figures if they're willing to work the hours and I do not live in a high cost area.

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Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [Cavechild] [ In reply to ]
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Are you aware that Harvard is free for anyone whose family income is under ~70k and subsidized all the way up to ~300k
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Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
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Ah that's so nice of them. They overcharge and then give a discount. On top of paying $0 in taxes, they receive over $600 million per year in federal funding. And that's just 1 University. If the Liberal Institutions just paid their fair share, we probably wouldn't have a deficit.
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Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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The GOP is saying that not everyone *needs* or *should* receive a college education. The world needs plumbers, painters, electricians, etc. and trade schools would better serve A LOT of students. BTW plumbers, roofers, and HVAC techs in my neck of the woods are clearing six figures if they're willing to work the hours and I do not live in a high cost area.


Fine, and I would agree (to a point). That said, it is undeniable that equality of opportunity is far less today than it was a few decades ago, in that:
  • Gains in pay scales for jobs which require a college degree have consistently outstripped high school diploma jobs for decades (even with the awesome HVAC/plumbing jobs).
  • Contrary to popular opinion, there simply aren't enough plumbing jobs. There are a LOT more barristas, cashiers, Uber drivers, maids, laborers, etc.


The GOP can say whatever it wants. Reality has determined that college is a minimum requirement for a host of higher-paying jobs, and access to that is heavily determined by class/wealth. The valuation of that has driven costs upward.
Last edited by: oldandslow: Dec 7, 17 23:31
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Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [Cavechild] [ In reply to ]
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It was stated that Harvard isn’t doing anything to curb the cost to attend college. That is false. You have now moved the goal posts to say that they aren’t paying their fair share. Okay, I guess.
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Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]
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There are plenty of HVAC/plumbing jobs in the right area. Colorado is making a huge push to have kids and adults know about these jobs. We’re at the point in Colorado that they are so short staffed that workers will just leave jobs because someone else is paying more for a different project.

No one is debating there are higher gains for college degrees if you get into an industry that wants a college degree, the gains are going to be far less however when you go into an industry that doesn’t require a college degree but you are paying back loans which is a good chunk of people right now.

There are a lot of people that will never have access to a high paying job even with a college degree because they don’t have the degree or intelligence to reach that level. But we shove a ton of these people through college still with false hopes and as much money as they want to take in loans causing crazy rise in tuition prices.

Tuition hasn’t increased due to college being more desirable, but due to unlimited funding from student loans. When you can take out 20-30k a year to go to go an instate school there are going to be long term issues.

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Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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Tuition hasn’t increased due to college being more desirable, but due to unlimited funding from student loans.

The rise in tuition is due to several factors. As a counter-example, private elementary/high school tuition has been skyrocketing (no government funding). You can't lay it ALL on the feet of government loans. It has increased due to the simple fact that it IS more desirable, and a better path to higher-paying jobs. That said, it isn't a guarantee, and the value is much less for folks without connections, and the cost much greater for those taking loans.

Opportunity will never be equal, yet there was a time when we chose to guarantee K-12 education as a means of improving it. Times have changed, and a high school diploma is less valuable, with a concomitant reduction of opportunity. Without the willingness to adequately support post-secondary opportunity, we turned to loans, which were always a bad way to go, since folks are terrible at weighting future liability. Trade schools? Sure, lots of community colleges do exactly that, and for-profit colleges made big bucks with terrible outcomes. That said, there just aren't tens of millions of "plumber" jobs out there.
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Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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Grant.Reuter wrote:
There are plenty of HVAC/plumbing jobs in the right area. Colorado is making a huge push to have kids and adults know about these jobs. We’re at the point in Colorado that they are so short staffed that workers will just leave jobs because someone else is paying more for a different project.

No one is debating there are higher gains for college degrees if you get into an industry that wants a college degree, the gains are going to be far less however when you go into an industry that doesn’t require a college degree but you are paying back loans which is a good chunk of people right now.

There are a lot of people that will never have access to a high paying job even with a college degree because they don’t have the degree or intelligence to reach that level. But we shove a ton of these people through college still with false hopes and as much money as they want to take in loans causing crazy rise in tuition prices.

Tuition hasn’t increased due to college being more desirable, but due to unlimited funding from student loans. When you can take out 20-30k a year to go to go an instate school there are going to be long term issues.

I had a house built here in CO 4+ years ago. Throughout construction I had a number of conversations with different trades supervisors. They all said they cannot hire enough good help. To Grant's point, it's not that there isn't enough available warm bodies, it's those warm bodies are simply unaware of the options available to them, or are simply unwilling to work in the environments necessary for certain trades.

My own kids think a "job" mean siting in front of the computer all day.

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Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
vitus979 wrote:
That's fair.

Whatcha think about the charge that the changes were deliberately aimed at blue states?


I think that’s true in a sense. It exposes more painfully how high the taxes are in these places and it also makes it so the fed isnt subsidizing the cost of these taxes anymore.

My personal taxes will probably go up over all, btw. That being said there needs to pressure on this state (CA) to get it together. Our state leaders are completely out of control.

Completely.

Think about this, we have spent at least $3.5 billion on our “high speed” rail project so far and not one single inch of high speed rail track has been laid down.

Where’s all that money going?

And, seriously, we’re supposedly going to build high speed rail. Rail. Trains.

By the time it gets done (if ever) we will have self driving cars.

And democrats call themselves “progressive”.

Fucking scam.

What the hell does the operational design of the car have to do w/ roadway system capacity and how many vehicles are saturating it? Whether the occupant of the car is driving it or not is entirely beside the point of trying to move more people outside of the highway network to lessen traffic gridlock.

$3.5B does seem like an awful lot so I wouldn't attempt to defend that number specifically, only you can't just start laying track down w/o technical studies on siting feasibility, corridor safety, seismic resilience, right-of-way acquisition, etc, etc. No idea the scope and duration so I can't say what a reasonable amount ought to be, only that a shit-ton of unseen prep work has to go into a project of that magnitude so I wouldn't expect it to be cheap.

We've had similar grumbling for a massive freeway bridge replacement project which the state/feds spent something like $300M to study, and then one of the key partners didn't like the answers they were getting and walked away from the table ~ so all the feasibility & design analysis is just sitting on the shelf for the foreseeable future and the existing bridge continues to decay and fall short of all its traffic performance metrics. People will say all that money was wasted (which in a sense is true, but only if you knew in advance the project was never intended to get built) but they haven't a clue what's involved in planning not just the structural design and construction itself but all the logistics around managing the project site before, during, & after. I can only imagine something attempting to link SF-LA would be vastly more.
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Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [OneGoodLeg] [ In reply to ]
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With self driving cars you could conceivably have bumper to bumper traffic but instead of stop and go 5 mph they all could be bumper to bumper going 80.

Massive efficiency increase of existing highway system.

Also, trains? Really? This 2017 not 1917. We are going to sink billions of dollars over the next decade or so to maybe build something that will be obsolete by the time it’s operational. And nobody is going to use it because flying will be cheaper.

And specific to the CA bullet train, it’s a giant scam. There will be no high speed rail as promised and a lot of politically connected people will get rich off it.

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Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [Cavechild] [ In reply to ]
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Cavechild wrote:
Ah that's so nice of them. They overcharge and then give a discount. On top of paying $0 in taxes, they receive over $600 million per year in federal funding. And that's just 1 University. If the Liberal Institutions just paid their fair share, we probably wouldn't have a deficit.

But it's not like the feds are simply paying the schools for groudskeeping and other basic operational costs... Most of it is research grants for national programs like NIH or NSF or specific departments like Energy or Ag which add to our knowledge base and contribute/develop solutions to common problems, or are targeted to specific areas like crime reporting or sexual harassment that get rolled up into larger initiatives to mitigate broader problem areas that span beyond individual campuses.
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Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [OneGoodLeg] [ In reply to ]
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With $37 Billion in the bank and $0 tax bill why does Harvard need $600 million in taxpayer money? Besides the obvious that the $37,000,000,000 would drop to the precariously level $36,400,000,000. The researches that work there don't get a $0 tax bill. A company researching a cure for cancer doesn't get a $0 tax bill, or a $600 million government gift. Why are liberal institutions so special?
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Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
With self driving cars you could conceivably have bumper to bumper traffic but instead of stop and go 5 mph they all could be bumper to bumper going 80.

Massive efficiency increase of existing highway system.

Also, trains? Really? This 2017 not 1917. We are going to sink billions of dollars over the next decade or so to maybe build something that will be obsolete by the time it’s operational. And nobody is going to use it because flying will be cheaper.

And specific to the CA bullet train, it’s a giant scam. There will be no high speed rail as promised and a lot of politically connected people will get rich off it.

Huh? Are you fucking high? A marginal gain perhaps due to more predictable and consistent vehicle behaviors at a small scale, but at a regional scale (which a train system is designed for) you can't have an infinite line of cars all going 80 when they're still constrained by traffic lights and surface cross-traffic backing up the off-ramps, and having to accommodate additional vehicles merging from on-ramps. The highway system is just like any other piece of infrastructure or flow network that will only perform as well as the next choke point.

I've no doubt politically connected people are getting fat off whatever train studies, but that's no different than politically connected people getting fat off the current highway & car-dependent system or anything else. That line of reasoning is just as stupid as pointing out how alternative energy systems are subsidized, as if we don't already subsidize the shit out of the petroleum industry. You just favor having the taxpayers contribute to the one that benefits you more.
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Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [mck414] [ In reply to ]
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mck414 wrote:
Grant.Reuter wrote:
There are plenty of HVAC/plumbing jobs in the right area. Colorado is making a huge push to have kids and adults know about these jobs. We’re at the point in Colorado that they are so short staffed that workers will just leave jobs because someone else is paying more for a different project.

No one is debating there are higher gains for college degrees if you get into an industry that wants a college degree, the gains are going to be far less however when you go into an industry that doesn’t require a college degree but you are paying back loans which is a good chunk of people right now.

There are a lot of people that will never have access to a high paying job even with a college degree because they don’t have the degree or intelligence to reach that level. But we shove a ton of these people through college still with false hopes and as much money as they want to take in loans causing crazy rise in tuition prices.

Tuition hasn’t increased due to college being more desirable, but due to unlimited funding from student loans. When you can take out 20-30k a year to go to go an instate school there are going to be long term issues.

I had a house built here in CO 4+ years ago. Throughout construction I had a number of conversations with different trades supervisors. They all said they cannot hire enough good help. To Grant's point, it's not that there isn't enough available warm bodies, it's those warm bodies are simply unaware of the options available to them, or are simply unwilling to work in the environments necessary for certain trades.

My own kids think a "job" mean siting in front of the computer all day.

I dropped out of University and took one of those trades jobs. Instead of graduating in debt, I earned around $160,000 during my apprenticeship, was paid to go to trade school, and got around $10k in grants and tax credits along the way. Finished my training, started my business and have been growing since.

There are lots of people who have done really well through trades here. The skilled labour shortage is staggering. It boggles my mind that our highschools are stripping shop classes from their curriculum. If a kid starts his apprenticeship out of highschool, he could be 21 and making close to 6 figures with no debt In the right trade. It's not easy work, but, the opportunity is there for the taking if you have a strong work ethic.
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Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Also, trains? Really? This 2017 not 1917. We are going to sink billions of dollars over the next decade or so to maybe build something that will be obsolete by the time it’s operational. And nobody is going to use it because flying will be cheaper. //

I have to agree whole heartedly with this, the train $$ should just stop and we should take our loss on it. At one time it probably was a good idea, but time and technology have passed it up, or at least will by the time it is built. Besides self driving cars, imagine a smart grid working all the stop lights. Right now they are all set to be at the same time for every direction for just about every time of day. But we know that is not how traffic works, in the mornings some lights need to stay green longer, afternoons others. Just a smart grid working these could alievate a ton of traffic, especially if it were smart cars driving most people around telling it where they are and where they are going.


This stupid bullet train will look like the very first steam engines used at the beginning of that technology. And you can bet the airline industry will not be far behind the self driving cars either, so speed of getting to longer distance places will not be a problem to be solved by bullet trains..


I have a feeling a lot of democrats want to let this thing go, but it has been going on for so long with such a big investment, no one wants to be the one to take the blame for closing it down. Once again kicking it down the road to the next group to deal with..
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Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]
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oldandslow wrote:

Fine, and I would agree (to a point). That said, it is undeniable that equality of opportunity is far less today than it was a few decades ago, in that:
  • Gains in pay scales for jobs which require a college degree have consistently outstripped high school diploma jobs for decades (even with the awesome HVAC/plumbing jobs).
  • Contrary to popular opinion, there simply aren't enough plumbing jobs. There are a LOT more barristas, cashiers, Uber drivers, maids, laborers, etc.


The GOP can say whatever it wants. Reality has determined that college is a minimum requirement for a host of higher-paying jobs, and access to that is heavily determined by class/wealth. The valuation of that has driven costs upward.
https://www.forbes.com/...s-ages/#7bbda8306397

That was four years ago but my guess is the same is true now: there aren't enough people filling these skilled trade professions. We've so ingrained the attitude that you HAVE to go to college, and universities and professional associations have pushed to require higher ed degrees (and even masters degrees) for more and more professions, that almost no one wants to go into the trades now.

One of my friends is a CFP, he said the best off clients of his are the kids in their 20's and 30's working in a trade, they make great money out of the gate without the debt of college kids, plus four extra years of earnings. If you're smart about it you have a nice little nest egg piled up by the time you're 40, when these college kids are finally paying off their loans.
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Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]
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oldandslow wrote:
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Tuition hasn’t increased due to college being more desirable, but due to unlimited funding from student loans.


The rise in tuition is due to several factors. As a counter-example, private elementary/high school tuition has been skyrocketing (no government funding). You can't lay it ALL on the feet of government loans. It has increased due to the simple fact that it IS more desirable, and a better path to higher-paying jobs. That said, it isn't a guarantee, and the value is much less for folks without connections, and the cost much greater for those taking loans.


I agree that there are multiple factors influencing the price of college. However, when the govt will give student loans to almost anyone it disrupts the market.

Furthermore, many students and parents need to take a step back and look at the big picture. If your child graduates with $200k in student loans and plans on being a teacher they are screwed. There are lower cost alternatives, like doing two years at a community college, but everyone has bought the "college experience" dream hook line and sinker. I have a coworker who's paying through the nose to send his daughter to a wanna be ivy league school in DC where she's majoring in opera. If it makes everyone happy that's fine with me, but when it's all said done don't go complaining about work opportunities and loan prices when you made a poor decision.
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Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]
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Brownie28 wrote:
oldandslow wrote:

Fine, and I would agree (to a point). That said, it is undeniable that equality of opportunity is far less today than it was a few decades ago, in that:
  • Gains in pay scales for jobs which require a college degree have consistently outstripped high school diploma jobs for decades (even with the awesome HVAC/plumbing jobs).
  • Contrary to popular opinion, there simply aren't enough plumbing jobs. There are a LOT more barristas, cashiers, Uber drivers, maids, laborers, etc.


The GOP can say whatever it wants. Reality has determined that college is a minimum requirement for a host of higher-paying jobs, and access to that is heavily determined by class/wealth. The valuation of that has driven costs upward.
https://www.forbes.com/...s-ages/#7bbda8306397

That was four years ago but my guess is the same is true now: there aren't enough people filling these skilled trade professions. We've so ingrained the attitude that you HAVE to go to college, and universities and professional associations have pushed to require higher ed degrees (and even masters degrees) for more and more professions, that almost no one wants to go into the trades now.

One of my friends is a CFP, he said the best off clients of his are the kids in their 20's and 30's working in a trade, they make great money out of the gate without the debt of college kids, plus four extra years of earnings. If you're smart about it you have a nice little nest egg piled up by the time you're 40, when these college kids are finally paying off their loans.

Depends on which white collar job you take though. I'd say over half of my industry doesn't need a college degree, and they are paid like it, but they still need it to get the job. Eyeroll emoji
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Re: NIMBY makes its way to the tax bill [Perseus] [ In reply to ]
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Perseus wrote:
oldandslow wrote:
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Tuition hasn’t increased due to college being more desirable, but due to unlimited funding from student loans.


The rise in tuition is due to several factors. As a counter-example, private elementary/high school tuition has been skyrocketing (no government funding). You can't lay it ALL on the feet of government loans. It has increased due to the simple fact that it IS more desirable, and a better path to higher-paying jobs. That said, it isn't a guarantee, and the value is much less for folks without connections, and the cost much greater for those taking loans.


I agree that there are multiple factors influencing the price of college. However, when the govt will give student loans to almost anyone it disrupts the market.

Furthermore, many students and parents need to take a step back and look at the big picture. If your child graduates with $200k in student loans and plans on being a teacher they are screwed. There are lower cost alternatives, like doing two years at a community college, but everyone has bought the "college experience" dream hook line and sinker. I have a coworker who's paying through the nose to send his daughter to a wanna be ivy league school in DC where she's majoring in opera. If it makes everyone happy that's fine with me, but when it's all said done don't go complaining about work opportunities and loan prices when you made a poor decision.

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