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Re: IM Swim Split - How Fast Do You Need To Be? [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]
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This might have some value if every Ironman Swim was done in a Pool, distance measured precisely with the exact same conditions (current, wind, salt v. fresh water, rolling v. mass start, etc), but they arenÂ’t. ItÂ’s a little misleading to tell athletes they should be measuring success or failure by time in an open water swim. ThereÂ’s a reason there arenÂ’t any world records kept for the 5k, 10k and 25k Open Water swims.

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
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Re: IM Swim Split - How Fast Do You Need To Be? [Kiyakon] [ In reply to ]
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Kiyakon wrote:
I ran an analysis on myself.


I recently did a 50m free race at 26.6s - short course meters
My all out 2.4Mile swim effort in open water with a full sleeve wetsuit on a typical day is 48:30.- this effort leaves me pretty useless the rest of the day.
My IM swims are typically in the 52-53.5 range. (coming out feeling comfortableish)

If I take the 50m free and extrapolate it to 140% I get pretty close to my all out 2.4Mile effort.
However to get to my IM effort its more like 152-155%.

Am I going to easy on my IM or is my swim training for IM lacking?


A couple points:

1. I'd estimate you need 20k weekly yardage to get close to the prediction. Wide range there, but more swimming than most are doing.

2. While my equation is linear, the relationship of 25 yard sprint to IM swim spits is probably not linear, when we consider a wide range of sprint speeds. It definitely underestimates IM Splits for very fast sprinters.

Something like Slowman's quadratic equation for predicted armrest drop is what is needed. That equation is C=.005D² - .2D (C = drop and D = seat height) But that is only good at 77.5° of seat tube angle. At steeper angles we need to predict greater drop, and shallower angles generally result in less drop. So that .2 before the final D gets bigger (for shallower) or smaller (for steeper) by .0075 for every degree we deviate from 77.5°


I likely need to anchor my formula at perhaps a :15 25 yard sprint predicting a low 59 IM swim, and then modify the calculations slightly for faster and slower sprint speeds. Or maybe a :16 25 yard predicting a 1:03 swim is the right starting point? It was just something I whipped up while basting a turkey, so any math majors want to take a shot at this, feel free.


It does seem to work well in the 14 - 24 second range.
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Re: IM Swim Split - How Fast Do You Need To Be? [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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SnappingT wrote:
This might have some value if every Ironman Swim was done in a Pool, distance measured precisely with the exact same conditions (current, wind, salt v. fresh water, rolling v. mass start, etc), but they arenÂ’t. ItÂ’s a little misleading to tell athletes they should be measuring success or failure by time in an open water swim. ThereÂ’s a reason there arenÂ’t any world records kept for the 5k, 10k and 25k Open Water swims.


It's an estimated predictor with a wide range, assuming appropriate fitness, good navigation and an accurate course. That's all it is. I'm not measuring anyone's success or failure, simply trying to come up with a ballpark figure that is data driven.

Interesting that I have 4 swim coaches telling me it's worthless, and about 30 swimmers telling me it is pretty close or right on.
Last edited by: FindinFreestyle: Nov 24, 17 7:58
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Re: IM Swim Split - How Fast Do You Need To Be? [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]
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Then I would definitely follow the expertise of the beginning swimmers.

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
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Re: IM Swim Split - How Fast Do You Need To Be? [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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SnappingT wrote:
Then I would definitely follow the expertise of the beginning swimmers.


If you would like to have a discussion, don't put words into my mouth. If you are wanting to tear me down due to your own coaching insecurity, carry on.

An ex swimmer turned pro triathlete and two sub 55 Kona Qualifiers are among those who ran their personal math on this.
Last edited by: FindinFreestyle: Nov 24, 17 8:17
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Re: IM Swim Split - How Fast Do You Need To Be? [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]
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I don't have many posts on this forum but i am a long time lurker & Swimmer by background ... i found this whole thread very interesting but the one thing your equation doesn't seem to allow for is different stroke types / kick types.

The reason you may have a lot of swimmers saying this works is because on this forum you may not have swimmers who alter there stroke. However, maybe the coaches have a similar mindset to my own experience; being that, when I'm doing a 50 all out, I'm not breathing and am typically using an all out kick (call it a six beat if you want) and my stroke is shoulder driven for faster turn over. I translate into a much more hip driven lop sided stroke (think KL) for 200-400's but do not have the stamina or muscular strength to maintain that for a 70.3 or IM swim. So, especially with a wet suit, I let my legs act as stabilizers / provide resistance for my pull and accentuate my rotating to lengthen out my stroke. That too all changes depending on whether i am fighting for a top spot at the FOP, if i am out on my own and what the conditions are like...

just my $0.02 (and keep in mind I am Canadian so it's not even worth that much!)
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Re: IM Swim Split - How Fast Do You Need To Be? [MikeyC-anada] [ In reply to ]
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MikeyC-anada wrote:
I don't have many posts on this forum but i am a long time lurker & Swimmer by background ... i found this whole thread very interesting but the one thing your equation doesn't seem to allow for is different stroke types / kick types.

The reason you may have a lot of swimmers saying this works is because on this forum you may not have swimmers who alter there stroke. However, maybe the coaches have a similar mindset to my own experience; being that, when I'm doing a 50 all out, I'm not breathing and am typically using an all out kick (call it a six beat if you want) and my stroke is shoulder driven for faster turn over. I translate into a much more hip driven lop sided stroke (think KL) for 200-400's but do not have the stamina or muscular strength to maintain that for a 70.3 or IM swim. So, especially with a wet suit, I let my legs act as stabilizers / provide resistance for my pull and accentuate my rotating to lengthen out my stroke. That too all changes depending on whether i am fighting for a top spot at the FOP, if i am out on my own and what the conditions are like...

just my $0.02 (and keep in mind I am Canadian so it's not even worth that much!)

I can definitely roll with any of those points. I think they ways that a 25 yard sprint is similar to a 3800m IM swim are plentiful enough that the equation has some value. The ways they are different takes away some value for sure. I think enough value remains.
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Re: IM Swim Split - How Fast Do You Need To Be? [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed!!

I think with the range you provide it absolutely "works." Just as long as people aren't training to bring down there 25 time and neglecting the distance. Like i think you said in the other thread (you mentioned 20,000yards / week), there's an emphasis that needs to be placed on weekly mileage and i know for myself, i don't start to get into long distance swim shape until I'm hitting 15,000m a week. Now i can pound out a sub 26 LCM 50 fr though with minimal pool time and some weights... but i would be screwed in an IM swim!
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Re: IM Swim Split - How Fast Do You Need To Be? [MikeyC-anada] [ In reply to ]
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I have found 15k to be my magic number as well.

In the past I've had some really good swim success with a long endurance set a couple weeks out while I'm tapering the run and bike. I will do a 10x800m or 20x400m swim set. Aiming to do them at goal IM pace in the pool with 20sec rest between each.
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Re: IM Swim Split - How Fast Do You Need To Be? [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]
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FindinFreestyle wrote:
MikeyC-anada wrote:
I don't have many posts on this forum but i am a long time lurker & Swimmer by background ... i found this whole thread very interesting but the one thing your equation doesn't seem to allow for is different stroke types / kick types.

The reason you may have a lot of swimmers saying this works is because on this forum you may not have swimmers who alter there stroke. However, maybe the coaches have a similar mindset to my own experience; being that, when I'm doing a 50 all out, I'm not breathing and am typically using an all out kick (call it a six beat if you want) and my stroke is shoulder driven for faster turn over. I translate into a much more hip driven lop sided stroke (think KL) for 200-400's but do not have the stamina or muscular strength to maintain that for a 70.3 or IM swim. So, especially with a wet suit, I let my legs act as stabilizers / provide resistance for my pull and accentuate my rotating to lengthen out my stroke. That too all changes depending on whether i am fighting for a top spot at the FOP, if i am out on my own and what the conditions are like...

just my $0.02 (and keep in mind I am Canadian so it's not even worth that much!)

I can definitely roll with any of those points. I think they ways that a 25 yard sprint is similar to a 3800m IM swim are plentiful enough that the equation has some value. The ways they are different takes away some value for sure. I think enough value remains.

HereÂ’s what I love about your equation, that I think the other coaches are missing: technique is fundamentally connected to what works for speed in swimming. If you get forum folks listening to advice about technique, doing drills, etc, 80% of the time they have no idea what you mean and more often than not it leads to no change or bizarre over-corrections. What people need is an experience of swimming faster.
If you can swim a 15 sec 25, you can start to figure out how to swim like a real swimmer for much more distance. And if you canÂ’t, there are real things you can do to noticeably improve in that area.
Most young age group coaching is 25s and 50s, pretty much all practice. Most real swimmers know how to look at a clock and experiment. Most triathletes have never done either of these. It shows.
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