Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Vittoria Latex – Is This ‘Normal’ …
Quote | Reply
History :

Dad got a puncture, immediately following inflation.
Tubes / tyres (conti GP4’s) have been on for a couple of months or so – no issues to date.
Nothing in tyre.
Tube was punctured a couple inch from the valve right in the middle of the rim tape.

The tube has this pattern that perfectly follows the inside of the tube, directly against the rim tape / in line with the valve stem :

https://instagram.com/p/BbfSt88Hno7/

The puncture was right on the peak of one of those little bumps.

This was the rim tape :

https://instagram.com/p/BbfS3F6HU8E/

I have now replaced the tape on both wheels and I am about to refit the tyres, are those tubes OK or is there a problem with them ? It kind of looks like a weak seam running around the inside of the tube ?

I don’t just want to chance it, dads 76 so I would rather not have him messing around swapping a tube at the roadside … :-)

Sorry for Instagram links – Photobucket is holding all my stuff to ransom at the moment :-(

WD :-)
Quote Reply
Re: Vittoria Latex – Is This ‘Normal’ … [WD Pro] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fine.
Quote Reply
Re: Vittoria Latex – Is This ‘Normal’ … [WD Pro] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The only time I've ever had a "spontaneous" latex tube failure was using cloth tape. Try switching to Stans.
Quote Reply
Re: Vittoria Latex – Is This ‘Normal’ … [WD Pro] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Once I take a look at a Vittoria latex tube and see the warts/irregularity all over, I can't in good conscience use it again....haha if I just don't look it's not so bad. So on a race tire, I'd replace. And I like the Michelin tubes better when I can find them


Coach at KonaCoach Multisport
Quote Reply
Re: Vittoria Latex – Is This ‘Normal’ … [WD Pro] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Over the past 8 months I have noticed a much higher failure rate in that same rough location than I ever have experienced in the past with Vittoria tubes. I'm not really sure what's going on. Different wheels, different rim stripes, different "batches" of Vittoria tubes...all have experienced something akin to what you are posting about. Pretty annoying. I'm very experienced with installing butyl/latex tubes correctly and am confident that I am doing nothing wrong during installation.
Quote Reply
Re: Vittoria Latex – Is This ‘Normal’ … [WD Pro] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I like nylon tape over cloth with 2 layers especially with latex tubes, reapplying talc powder can help as sometimes the tube will get hung up. it is a pain, but if I know I am not going to use them for a few months I pull the tubes and store than in zipplock bags with powder, others do not and seem to fair ok as well.
Quote Reply
Re: Vittoria Latex – Is This ‘Normal’ … [WD Pro] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
WD Pro wrote:
History :

Dad got a puncture, immediately following inflation.
Tubes / tyres (conti GP4’s) have been on for a couple of months or so – no issues to date.
Nothing in tyre.
Tube was punctured a couple inch from the valve right in the middle of the rim tape.

The tube has this pattern that perfectly follows the inside of the tube, directly against the rim tape / in line with the valve stem :

https://instagram.com/p/BbfSt88Hno7/

The puncture was right on the peak of one of those little bumps.

This was the rim tape :

https://instagram.com/p/BbfS3F6HU8E/

I have now replaced the tape on both wheels and I am about to refit the tyres, are those tubes OK or is there a problem with them ? It kind of looks like a weak seam running around the inside of the tube ?

I don’t just want to chance it, dads 76 so I would rather not have him messing around swapping a tube at the roadside … :-)

Sorry for Instagram links – Photobucket is holding all my stuff to ransom at the moment :-(

WD :-)

Carbon rims, right? What you are seeing is a braking heat affected zone, and carbon rims heat up more than aluminum rims do, so you're more likely to see that with those rims.

The tape doesn't help...2 layers of a quality tubeless rim tape should be better, especially since you can have it go up the sides of the rim bed a bit for more "protection".

Josh explained it all pretty well in this recent post: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=6357266#p6357266

Quote:
The wrinkled bits are a combination of the latex stretching to fit into the little negative space under the bead, made permanent by exposure to brake heat. In most setups you will have 2 rows of this wrinkled area, and as your rim tape moves side to side you may see the wrinkles move similarly.
The ideal latex setup has a high quality rim tape running the full width of the rim to that it runs under the tire bead, and if the sides of the tire well are deep enough, you ideally want the tape to go up the side a bit to give you added protection in that interior corner under the bead.

It's amazing how effective even a thin rim tape is at knocking down the surface temperatures inside of the system. Remember, Latex has a max temperature rating of around 240-260F depending on formulation and lightweight rims can easily heat soak into the mid 300's at the brake track during serious descending and can briefly hit the high 200's with a single panic stop from high speed on flat ground.

Tubeless tape has a few key advantages here:
1. It is thinner than traditional tapes so that it makes tire installation easier = you're less likely to pinch the tube
2. It's smooth which is important in allowing the latest tube to be moved into position without any stickiness that can cause a pinch during install
3. It comes in widths so that you can buy it wide enough for your rim, and it's flexible enough that it can be run slightly wider than normal for added protection, i.e. I have 303's which came with 19mm plastic rim tape which I've replaced with 21mm tubeless tape that runs the full width of the tire well and comes up the side of the bead about 1mm. With Vittoria Corsa G+ there is no latex-carbon contact with this setup and pulling the tubes out after months of use shows ever so slight deformation in the tube from expanding into the little corner at the bottom of the bead, but none of the heat-damage wrinkling.
4. It is wrapped on in layers, so you get a slight added insulating effect of having numerous layers and interfaces which makes for less efficient heat transfer than you get from a single ply of plastic, and also you can tune it to your conditions. I run 2 layers of SILCA Platinum in all my wheels, but know some heavier guys who live in places hillier than Indiana and they will run 3-4 plies depending on the tire/rim combination.

The best way to think of it is that the rim tape is a form of insulation that's essentially buying you time under heavy braking. In the Ultimate Failure testing model we built at Zipp and have shared with the industry, the wheel is driven at over 1000 watts against the brake pads and the goal is to last a certain amount of time to prove the system is safe. It is common to see butyl tubes with plastic rim tape fail at 3-4 minutes and latex tubes fail at around 2-3 minutes with standard rim tapes...getting the proper width of tubeless tape at 2 plies can extend the life of the latex to more like 3-3:30 and then each additional ply of rim tape can add another 20-30 seconds. So latex with 3 plies of properly sized tubeless tape can last as long as a butyl tube with stock rim tape.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Quote Reply
Re: Vittoria Latex – Is This ‘Normal’ … [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Tom A. wrote:
Carbon rims, right? What you are seeing is a braking heat affected zone, and carbon rims heat up more than aluminum rims do, so you're more likely to see that with those rims.

The tape doesn't help...2 layers of a quality tubeless rim tape should be better, especially since you can have it go up the sides of the rim bed a bit for more "protection".


I live in a non-mountainous area and do not ride carbon clinchers, yet still get the exact same marks on Vittoria and Challenge latex tubes.

Vittoria Evo Corsa's or 4000s II tires, aluminum rimmed Zipps or aluminum training wheels, 3-5 layers of nylon reinforced tape as rim strips. Incredibly reliable, and I have ridden the setup in areas with ~2000 ft switchbacked descents without issue.

To the OP, you're good to go. I'd recommend non-cloth tape, though.

-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels
Quote Reply
Re: Vittoria Latex – Is This ‘Normal’ … [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
not to mention the puncture repair aspects of the tape, latex tube, and pre-installed sealant as prophylactic

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
Quote Reply
Re: Vittoria Latex – Is This ‘Normal’ … [WD Pro] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
WD Pro wrote:

I don’t just want to chance it, dads 76

Given your concerns, why latex at all?

I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com
Quote Reply
Re: Vittoria Latex – Is This ‘Normal’ … [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
All good info thanks and an interesting read :-)

I don't think it's applicable though, dads on alloy rims (retro spinergys - you can just see the pbo spokes in the picture) and he defo doesn't go charging down hills anymore !

For further info, this is the puncture :

https://instagram.com/p/Bbh6bC7n2bG/

The bumps have reduced significantly now it's been out / deflated for a while but you can clearly see the seam and it's orientation to the valve.

WD :-)
Quote Reply
Re: Vittoria Latex – Is This ‘Normal’ … [xtrpickels] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
xtrpickels wrote:
WD Pro wrote:

I don’t just want to chance it, dads 76

Given your concerns, why latex at all?

I am not concerned about latex in general, we ran it for years (old school air b's on the MTB) and it is surposedly more resilient to punctures (if fitted properly) - what concerns me is fitting a potentially faulty / poorly manufactured / sub standard tube.

Please let me know if you look on latex differently :-)

WD :-)
Quote Reply
Re: Vittoria Latex – Is This ‘Normal’ … [WD Pro] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
WD Pro wrote:
All good info thanks and an interesting read :-)

I don't think it's applicable though, dads on alloy rims (retro spinergys - you can just see the pbo spokes in the picture) and he defo doesn't go charging down hills anymore !

For further info, this is the puncture :

https://instagram.com/p/Bbh6bC7n2bG/

The bumps have reduced significantly now it's been out / deflated for a while but you can clearly see the seam and it's orientation to the valve.

WD :-)

I've started using the Challenge tubes more than Vittoria...they're slightly thicker material, AND there's no splice joint. I've had failures in the past at the splice joint before, where it's expanded down into the rim bed when inflated.

Also, I've found that if the tubes are offered in sizes, if you use the largest size you can fit, that the material is less stretched in use (i.e. less likely to get the stretch marks) and seem to fend off punctures better. I've also noticed they tend to lose air at a slower rate. That's another reason to use the Challenge models since they offer sizes for CX sized tires.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Quote Reply
Re: Vittoria Latex – Is This ‘Normal’ … [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Tom A. wrote:
WD Pro wrote:
All good info thanks and an interesting read :-)

I don't think it's applicable though, dads on alloy rims (retro spinergys - you can just see the pbo spokes in the picture) and he defo doesn't go charging down hills anymore !

For further info, this is the puncture :

https://instagram.com/p/Bbh6bC7n2bG/

The bumps have reduced significantly now it's been out / deflated for a while but you can clearly see the seam and it's orientation to the valve.

WD :-)

I've started using the Challenge tubes more than Vittoria...they're slightly thicker material, AND there's no splice joint. I've had failures in the past at the splice joint before, where it's expanded down into the rim bed when inflated.

Also, I've found that if the tubes are offered in sizes, if you use the largest size you can fit, that the material is less stretched in use (i.e. less likely to get the stretch marks) and seem to fend off punctures better. I've also noticed they tend to lose air at a slower rate. That's another reason to use the Challenge models since they offer sizes for CX sized tires.

Funny you mention the splice failure. That one just happened to me and the tube I was replacing had the valve stem fall out/fail where it attaches to the tube. It is the first time I have had back to back manufacturing defects. I might have gotten into a bad batch of Vittorias or just had extra bad luck.
Quote Reply
Re: Vittoria Latex – Is This ‘Normal’ … [WD Pro] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I've got the same patterns in my Michelin latex tubes which I run in 808 with the stock rim tape. I always ignore it and I run my latex tubes for at least two years without any problems. So I do not know if you should worry about that bumpy patterns at all.

If I see the puncture you posted and the bumpy patterns, it does not seem that they are related.
Quote Reply
Re: Vittoria Latex – Is This ‘Normal’ … [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I had the same problem earlier this year with 4 of the Vittoria 25mm tubes. The 21-23 mm ones that I bought at the same time have been flawless. I am running butyl on my rear tires until I hear that the problem has been fixed.

John
Quote Reply
Re: Vittoria Latex – Is This ‘Normal’ … [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jkhayc wrote:
Over the past 8 months I have noticed a much higher failure rate in that same rough location than I ever have experienced in the past with Vittoria tubes. I'm not really sure what's going on. Different wheels, different rim stripes, different "batches" of Vittoria tubes...all have experienced something akin to what you are posting about. Pretty annoying. I'm very experienced with installing butyl/latex tubes correctly and am confident that I am doing nothing wrong during installation.

has anyone noticed the tubes failing at the black valve insert area? Like, they get stuck inside the rim and when you press the pump head on you push the valve and it rips the black part and then failure.

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
Quote Reply
Re: Vittoria Latex – Is This ‘Normal’ … [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ericMPro wrote:
jkhayc wrote:
Over the past 8 months I have noticed a much higher failure rate in that same rough location than I ever have experienced in the past with Vittoria tubes. I'm not really sure what's going on. Different wheels, different rim stripes, different "batches" of Vittoria tubes...all have experienced something akin to what you are posting about. Pretty annoying. I'm very experienced with installing butyl/latex tubes correctly and am confident that I am doing nothing wrong during installation.


has anyone noticed the tubes failing at the black valve insert area? Like, they get stuck inside the rim and when you press the pump head on you push the valve and it rips the black part and then failure.

That sounds like classis latex user error. You should not push up on the valve on latex tubes without support from the other side. It can makes the tube fold under itself and it will burst when you pump it up.
Quote Reply
Re: Vittoria Latex – Is This ‘Normal’ … [MTM] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
MTM wrote:
ericMPro wrote:
jkhayc wrote:
Over the past 8 months I have noticed a much higher failure rate in that same rough location than I ever have experienced in the past with Vittoria tubes. I'm not really sure what's going on. Different wheels, different rim stripes, different "batches" of Vittoria tubes...all have experienced something akin to what you are posting about. Pretty annoying. I'm very experienced with installing butyl/latex tubes correctly and am confident that I am doing nothing wrong during installation.


has anyone noticed the tubes failing at the black valve insert area? Like, they get stuck inside the rim and when you press the pump head on you push the valve and it rips the black part and then failure.


That sounds like classis latex user error. You should not push up on the valve on latex tubes without support from the other side. It can makes the tube fold under itself and it will burst when you pump it up.

thanks for that, good to know I have room to improve.

my current system is Stan's rim tape 3 loops as wide as I can get it, latex tube pre-loaded with Stan's sealant, and then proper install including pumping twice and checking bead all the way around on both sides before inflating fully.

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
Quote Reply
Re: Vittoria Latex – Is This ‘Normal’ … [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ericMPro wrote:
jkhayc wrote:
Over the past 8 months I have noticed a much higher failure rate in that same rough location than I ever have experienced in the past with Vittoria tubes. I'm not really sure what's going on. Different wheels, different rim stripes, different "batches" of Vittoria tubes...all have experienced something akin to what you are posting about. Pretty annoying. I'm very experienced with installing butyl/latex tubes correctly and am confident that I am doing nothing wrong during installation.


has anyone noticed the tubes failing at the black valve insert area? Like, they get stuck inside the rim and when you press the pump head on you push the valve and it rips the black part and then failure.

I had that happen to me twice this year but in both cases the tubes had been in there for a long time (at least 2 years) so I just attributed it to that.
Quote Reply
Re: Vittoria Latex – Is This ‘Normal’ … [Physiojoe925] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Physiojoe925 wrote:
To the OP, you're good to go. I'd recommend non-cloth tape, though.

This 100%. I pretty much only use latex and have had zero problems with aluminum or full carbon wheels. I ride hills in 100 degree Texas heat and heat has NEVER been an issue, but what is an issue is improper installation.

You've got a lot of people that have difficulty installing butyl tubes wondering why latex isn't working for them. But installed correctly, latex is faster and less flat prone IMHO. I've pulled framing nails out of my tire that didn't puncture my tube several times.

But, latex will expand and fill every nook and cranny so you have had weak areas in your rim tape, it'll push on it, which is what looks like is happening. Try using non-cloth tape and look for any sharp edges around the wheel and valve hole. If you find any, file it down or get a better wheel.
Quote Reply
Re: Vittoria Latex – Is This ‘Normal’ … [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ericMPro wrote:
MTM wrote:
ericMPro wrote:
jkhayc wrote:
Over the past 8 months I have noticed a much higher failure rate in that same rough location than I ever have experienced in the past with Vittoria tubes. I'm not really sure what's going on. Different wheels, different rim stripes, different "batches" of Vittoria tubes...all have experienced something akin to what you are posting about. Pretty annoying. I'm very experienced with installing butyl/latex tubes correctly and am confident that I am doing nothing wrong during installation.


has anyone noticed the tubes failing at the black valve insert area? Like, they get stuck inside the rim and when you press the pump head on you push the valve and it rips the black part and then failure.


That sounds like classis latex user error. You should not push up on the valve on latex tubes without support from the other side. It can makes the tube fold under itself and it will burst when you pump it up.


thanks for that, good to know I have room to improve.

my current system is Stan's rim tape 3 loops as wide as I can get it, latex tube pre-loaded with Stan's sealant, and then proper install including pumping twice and checking bead all the way around on both sides before inflating fully.

Sounds like a good system and close to mine, though I only use 2 layers of Stan's and no sealant. Just remember not to push the valve :)
Quote Reply
Re: Vittoria Latex – Is This ‘Normal’ … [oktriguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thank you.

Cloth tape already gone. Rim cleaned and checked (one burr on rim joint - now gone). Plastic tape fitted. Four layers of electrical tape over the rim tape joint and valve hole. Fingers crossed ... lol

WD :-)
Quote Reply
Re: Vittoria Latex – Is This ‘Normal’ … [WD Pro] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I can't make a call on the tubes but what I might recommend is putting some Orange Seal in the new tubes to protect against any small punctures. If your dads still hammering at 76 this will just add a little peace of mind for you on the slow leaks at small holes.
Quote Reply
Re: Vittoria Latex – Is This ‘Normal’ … [Zenmaster28] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Same here, right at 2 years, failed at valve stem, the butyl reinforced part. Found it in transition after the race, whew!
Quote Reply