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Re: Berghdahl walked with dishonourable discharge [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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saltman wrote:
I’m not trying to contradict you. There was a woman who was evidently was raped while guarding her post. Kahuna mentioned theft and desertion as being the worst atorocities that someone in a small unit can commit. Theft probably doesn’t occur in the foxhole much either. It probably occurs back at the base where most rapes might occur. Murder on the other hand could very well happen in combat. Anyway I’m done.

Then why are you challenging the statements I made? I responded to a question regarding desertion versus rape and theft. I put it in the context of base life versus front line combat. That was not to diminish those other offenses but to put things in context.

I prosecuted rape, murder, assault and dozens of other heinous crimes. Every one of them was in a base life setting. Being in a “combat zone” is not the same as being in a front line unit. Most of those troops are still in a base life setting.

I still don’t know why you attempted to challenge me with a point that did not contradict the response I gave.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Berghdahl walked with dishonourable discharge [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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Not gonna lie, I’ve been drinking all night. I️ don’t think I️ was trying to challenge you, I️ didn’t understand how the theft and desertion can be more considered more serious than rape and murder. I️ didn’t really mean with respect to rape occuring in combat. How Can moral person make or female comfortably rely on a person that they may know or suspect has committed such acts wherever they might be. Desertion puts lives at risk, theft over rape or murder doesn’t make much sense to me. To your point, if it’s all just part of the military code that I️ will never understand so be it. Theft is probably just far more common and therefore more relatable.

Sorry for calling you an ignorant fuck.
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Re: Berghdahl walked with dishonourable discharge [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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saltman wrote:
Oh fuck off.

Pretty sure you just proved Rick_pcfl's point right here.
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Re: Berghdahl walked with dishonourable discharge [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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saltman wrote:
Not gonna lie, I’ve been drinking all night. I️ don’t think I️ was trying to challenge you, I️ didn’t understand how the theft and desertion can be more considered more serious than rape and murder. I️ didn’t really mean with respect to rape occuring in combat. How Can moral person make or female comfortably rely on a person that they may know or suspect has committed such acts wherever they might be. Desertion puts lives at risk, theft over rape or murder doesn’t make much sense to me. To your point, if it’s all just part of the military code that I️ will never understand so be it. Theft is probably just far more common and therefore more relatable.

Sorry for calling you an ignorant fuck.

Ok, that’s were I started to think you were going. I was responding to a reply to BK’s comment regarding dissertation. Neither of us are trying to rank the seriousness of crimes in a legal vacuum. If you did that, murder would be up there and rape right behind. In fact, the military views rape as such a horrible crime, the death penalty is available under the military justice system.

The point being made is rape and murder are “civilian offenses” (my term) meaning I is the same crime you see in the civilian world and is committed when soldiers are in a base like setting.

Dissertation is a military crime. It really does not exist in the civilian world. When it occurs while at the home base, it isn’t as serious. But when it happens in a small unit forward operations soldiers almost always get injured or killed. That happened here.

Dissertation puts the entire unit at risk. It puts the entire operation at risk. So, when you look at it in that context, it is “worse” is the same way a mass shooting is “worse” than a single murder- both still being horrible.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Berghdahl walked with dishonourable discharge [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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JSA wrote:
saltman wrote:
Not gonna lie, I’ve been drinking all night. I️ don’t think I️ was trying to challenge you, I️ didn’t understand how the theft and desertion can be more considered more serious than rape and murder. I️ didn’t really mean with respect to rape occuring in combat. How Can moral person make or female comfortably rely on a person that they may know or suspect has committed such acts wherever they might be. Desertion puts lives at risk, theft over rape or murder doesn’t make much sense to me. To your point, if it’s all just part of the military code that I️ will never understand so be it. Theft is probably just far more common and therefore more relatable.

Sorry for calling you an ignorant fuck.

Ok, that’s were I started to think you were going. I was responding to a reply to BK’s comment regarding dissertation. Neither of us are trying to rank the seriousness of crimes in a legal vacuum. If you did that, murder would be up there and rape right behind. In fact, the military views rape as such a horrible crime, the death penalty is available under the military justice system.

The point being made is rape and murder are “civilian offenses” (my term) meaning I is the same crime you see in the civilian world and is committed when soldiers are in a base like setting.

Dissertation is a military crime. It really does not exist in the civilian world. When it occurs while at the home base, it isn’t as serious. But when it happens in a small unit forward operations soldiers almost always get injured or killed. That happened here.

Dissertation puts the entire unit at risk. It puts the entire operation at risk. So, when you look at it in that context, it is “worse” is the same way a mass shooting is “worse” than a single murder- both still being horrible.

Dissertation? So they write a thesis about running away from the military?

Such a great lawyer.

===============
Proud member of the MSF (Maple Syrup Mafia)
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Re: Berghdahl walked with dishonourable discharge [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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JSA wrote:
saltman wrote:
Not gonna lie, I’ve been drinking all night. I️ don’t think I️ was trying to challenge you, I️ didn’t understand how the theft and desertion can be more considered more serious than rape and murder. I️ didn’t really mean with respect to rape occuring in combat. How Can moral person make or female comfortably rely on a person that they may know or suspect has committed such acts wherever they might be. Desertion puts lives at risk, theft over rape or murder doesn’t make much sense to me. To your point, if it’s all just part of the military code that I️ will never understand so be it. Theft is probably just far more common and therefore more relatable.

Sorry for calling you an ignorant fuck.


Ok, that’s were I started to think you were going. I was responding to a reply to BK’s comment regarding dissertation. Neither of us are trying to rank the seriousness of crimes in a legal vacuum. If you did that, murder would be up there and rape right behind. In fact, the military views rape as such a horrible crime, the death penalty is available under the military justice system.

The point being made is rape and murder are “civilian offenses” (my term) meaning I is the same crime you see in the civilian world and is committed when soldiers are in a base like setting.

Dissertation is a military crime. It really does not exist in the civilian world. When it occurs while at the home base, it isn’t as serious. But when it happens in a small unit forward operations soldiers almost always get injured or killed. That happened here.

Dissertation puts the entire unit at risk. It puts the entire operation at risk. So, when you look at it in that context, it is “worse” is the same way a mass shooting is “worse” than a single murder- both still being horrible.

Desertion and thievery really, really hurt a small unit such as the one Bergdahl was in. Every Soldier in that unit had to trust and rely on every other Soldier, and Bergdahl let them down. It's why the old military saying that the only thing worse than a thief is a deserter actually has some truth to it.

Rape and murder are horrendous, heinous crimes and you're right: under the UCMJ the death penalty can be applied to both, especially if they're committed on base, back in garrison, or if they've taken place in the field, in which case they're war crimes with the possibility of the death penalty as well. Thankfully, those two crimes are exceedingly rare in the context of taking place out in the field in a forward or hazard area (and not very common back on base or in garrison).

As far as I know, there have only been a couple of cases of murder, as a true war crime, since 9/11. One was when that Army sergeant rolled a grenade into the tent where his fellow Soldiers were sleeping and then fired on them with his M16 as they fled the tent. The other was that Army Staff Sergeant (I believe that was his paygrade) who basically went off the reservation and killed a number of people in a nearby village during the night.

Thievery and desertion, unfortunately, are more common and really have a very immediate impact on a unit's combat effectiveness. That was all I was trying to point out.

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."
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Re: Berghdahl walked with dishonourable discharge [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
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big kahuna wrote:
JSA wrote:
saltman wrote:
Not gonna lie, I’ve been drinking all night. I️ don’t think I️ was trying to challenge you, I️ didn’t understand how the theft and desertion can be more considered more serious than rape and murder. I️ didn’t really mean with respect to rape occuring in combat. How Can moral person make or female comfortably rely on a person that they may know or suspect has committed such acts wherever they might be. Desertion puts lives at risk, theft over rape or murder doesn’t make much sense to me. To your point, if it’s all just part of the military code that I️ will never understand so be it. Theft is probably just far more common and therefore more relatable.

Sorry for calling you an ignorant fuck.


Ok, that’s were I started to think you were going. I was responding to a reply to BK’s comment regarding dissertation. Neither of us are trying to rank the seriousness of crimes in a legal vacuum. If you did that, murder would be up there and rape right behind. In fact, the military views rape as such a horrible crime, the death penalty is available under the military justice system.

The point being made is rape and murder are “civilian offenses” (my term) meaning I is the same crime you see in the civilian world and is committed when soldiers are in a base like setting.

Dissertation is a military crime. It really does not exist in the civilian world. When it occurs while at the home base, it isn’t as serious. But when it happens in a small unit forward operations soldiers almost always get injured or killed. That happened here.

Dissertation puts the entire unit at risk. It puts the entire operation at risk. So, when you look at it in that context, it is “worse” is the same way a mass shooting is “worse” than a single murder- both still being horrible.

Desertion and thievery really, really hurt a small unit such as the one Bergdahl was in. Every Soldier in that unit had to trust and rely on every other Soldier, and Bergdahl let them down. It's why the old military saying that the only thing worse than a thief is a deserter actually has some truth to it.

Rape and murder are horrendous, heinous crimes and you're right: under the UCMJ the death penalty can be applied to both, especially if they're committed on base, back in garrison, or if they've taken place in the field, in which case they're war crimes with the possibility of the death penalty as well. Thankfully, those two crimes are exceedingly rare in the context of taking place out in the field in a forward or hazard area (and not very common back on base or in garrison).

As far as I know, there have only been a couple of cases of murder, as a true war crime, since 9/11. One was when that Army sergeant rolled a grenade into the tent where his fellow Soldiers were sleeping and then fired on them with his M16 as they fled the tent. The other was that Army Staff Sergeant (I believe that was his paygrade) who basically went off the reservation and killed a number of people in a nearby village during the night.

Thievery and desertion, unfortunately, are more common and really have a very immediate impact on a unit's combat effectiveness. That was all I was trying to point out.

Yep, exactly. Sorry for the auto-fill in my response above. That is why I rarely post via iPhone.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Berghdahl walked with dishonourable discharge [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Wow! Just Wow!

"Scores of troops joined in an all-out search for Bergdahl in the weeks after he abandoned his remote post.
Prosecutors cited two missions that resulted in wounds, including a soldier whose hand was shattered by a rocket-propelled grenade and another who suffered a head wound that put him in a wheelchair and rendered him unable to speak. A Navy SEAL suffered a career-ending leg wound.
The judge ruled that those firefights would not have happened if not for Bergdahl.
One of the wounded soldiers, Jonathan Morita of California, called the lack of prison time “unacceptable.” Morita, who testified during sentencing, still does not have full use of his dominant hand after he was hit by the RPG, which did not explode.
Referring to the lack of prison time, he said: “It should have maybe not been the life sentence, but it should have been something.”
The soldier from Hailey, Idaho, has been working a desk job at a military installation in San Antonio and has not been held in pretrial confinement."
https://apnews.com/b18beec2c4c84919b82d57188c62aab9/No-prison-for-Bergdahl-in-sentencing-for-walking-off-post

This POS betrayed to his fellow soldiers by ignoring his duty and deserting them. This selfishness caused them horrible injuries and the judge gives a slap on the wrist?!

Also not mentioned in the AP article was the 5 mass murderers released in a trade Obama illegally arranged (So he could throw a parade for a POW-epic fail) with out congressional approval. All of them are described as "high risk, as they may pose a threat to the U.S., its interests and allies."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/06/02/bowe-bergdahl-was-traded-for-5-taliban-commanders-heres-who-they-are/?utm_term=.bf365898b824


3 of the 5 claimed the will go back to fight. And according to Lt. Colonel Shaffer the Obama administration also paid $5 billion to Qatar where the released prisoners were sent to.


Khirullah Said Wali Khairkhwa
[/url]
This 47-year-old was once the Taliban's interior minister, actually helping to create the Taliban movement in 1994. His Guantanamo case file, released by WikiLeaks, described him as a “hard-liner in his support of the Taliban philosophy” and “known to have close ties to Osama bin Laden.”
Captured by Pakistani border patrol on Feb. 16 2002.y would go back to fighting. Also according to Lt. Colonel Shaffer the Obama administration paid $5 billion and released five top Taliban Gitmo detainees in exchange for deserter Bowe Bergdahl.
Mullah Mohammad Fazl
[/url]
The photograph included in Fazi's Guantanamo case file.
Also 47, Fazi was a senior commander in the Taliban army during the 1990s, eventually becoming its chief of staff. He is thought to have personally supervised the killing of thousands of Shiite Muslims near Kabul between 1998 and 2001. His Guantanamo case file also describes him as being present at a 2001 prison riot that led to the death of CIA operative Johnny Michael Spann, the first U.S. citizen killed in the Afghan war. "If released, detainee would likely rejoin the Taliban and establish ties with ACM elements participating in hostilities against US and Coalition forces in Afghanistan," his case file reads.
Fazi surrendered to a Northern Alliance commander in November 2001, and was transferred to U.S. custody in December.
Mullah Norullah Noori
[/url]
The photograph included in Noori's Guantanamo case file.
Noori, 47, was a provincial governor in several areas during the Taliban regime. He is also believed to have been present during Spann's death and may have also been involved in the Shiite massacre. His Guantanamo case file says that he "continues to be a significant figure encouraging acts of aggression."
Noori turned himself in to a Northern Alliance commander in November 2001.
Abdul Haq Wasiq
[/url]
The photograph included in Wasiq's Guantanamo case file.
Wasiq, 43, was the deputy chief of intelligence for the Taliban. According to his Guantanamo case file, he “utilized his office to support al Qaeda” and was “central to the Taliban’s effort to form alliances with other Islamic fundamentalist groups
Wasiq was detained in November 2001.
Mohammed Nabi Omari
[/url]
The photograph included in Omari's Guantanamo case file.
Omari, 46, was a member of a joint al-Qaeda-Taliban cell in eastern Khost province, according to his case file, and “one of the most significant former Taliban leaders detained” at Guantanamo.
Omari was captured in September 2002.
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