I'd be interested in the thought/comments for our Navy folks
https://www.defensenews.com/...investigations-find/
https://www.defensenews.com/...investigations-find/
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Re: Update on the Destroyer Collision [Go Pound Sand]
[ In reply to ]
Go Pound Sand wrote:
I'd be interested in the thought/comments for our Navy folks https://www.defensenews.com/...investigations-find/
I haven't read the released reports yet, but the article you posted isn't particularly surprising given what we knew so far.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
Re: Update on the Destroyer Collision [slowguy]
[ In reply to ]
slowguy wrote:
Go Pound Sand wrote:
I'd be interested in the thought/comments for our Navy folks https://www.defensenews.com/...investigations-find/
I haven't read the released reports yet, but the article you posted isn't particularly surprising given what we knew so far.
Agreed. It was always going to be the fault of the bridge and other watchstanders, at minimum. And Jesus, but what were the OOD and CIC on the Fitzgerald thinking?
The McCain's collision is definitely of a different character. I was not a SWO, so I can't even pretend to understand what the skipper on that tin can was supposed to be doing and when he was supposed to be doing it. It sounds like one mistake led to a chain of events that resulted in the collision, which we see a lot in aviation when accidents occur out here at the airport.
"Politics is just show business for ugly people."
Re: Update on the Destroyer Collision [Go Pound Sand]
[ In reply to ]
Ok, so I've read through the report. As I said, not really surprising that these incidents turned out to primarily be the fault of the Navy vessels. However, some of the details are surprising, if only from a "how could it be that way?" perspective.
On FITZGERALD, there was apparently some really fundamentally poor watch standing and knowledge regarding how to safely and responsibly navigate a ship. Not understanding how to use your radar, or how to stand watch as a lookout, or that you need to get on the radio to talk to ships in your vicinity are all really basic things to mess up. Lack of communication between the Pilot House, the Combat Information Center, the CO, the senior officers, etc is not a completely unusual problem, but it sounds like it was especially bad in this case.
On MCCAIN, this appears to have been a textbook chain of errors from the CO's decision to delay setting his navigation detail on through to failure to adhere to established procedures for operating the ship's steering console. On every ship I've ever sailed on, the Sea and Anchor Detail is set early to ensure all turnover is completed and all mechanical and procedural checks are done well prior to entering restricted waters. If the crew is too tired to set the detail on time, you delay entering restricted waters, you don't delay setting the detail but keep the rest of your schedule the same. The fact that they clearly had young Sailors who weren't properly qualified to stand a normal watch much less the enhanced watches that exist in the S&A detail and officers on the bridge that didn't understand what was going on just exacerbated the issues. Every ship is required to conduct a briefing prior to entering restricted waters, during which they cover the navigational track and hazards, responsibilities of the watch, and response actions covering a variety of possible emergencies (including a loss of steering). For something like this, the Master Helmsman and Master Lee Helmsman would have briefed their actions. Unfortunately, those guys were not on the bridge to take proper action because the detail was set too late and they were apparently still eating breakfast. There are errors all along the way right up until the collision.
Overall, this is about as bad a report on the qualifications, knowledge, and adherence to sound maritime and Naval practices that I've seen in awhile, if ever.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
On FITZGERALD, there was apparently some really fundamentally poor watch standing and knowledge regarding how to safely and responsibly navigate a ship. Not understanding how to use your radar, or how to stand watch as a lookout, or that you need to get on the radio to talk to ships in your vicinity are all really basic things to mess up. Lack of communication between the Pilot House, the Combat Information Center, the CO, the senior officers, etc is not a completely unusual problem, but it sounds like it was especially bad in this case.
On MCCAIN, this appears to have been a textbook chain of errors from the CO's decision to delay setting his navigation detail on through to failure to adhere to established procedures for operating the ship's steering console. On every ship I've ever sailed on, the Sea and Anchor Detail is set early to ensure all turnover is completed and all mechanical and procedural checks are done well prior to entering restricted waters. If the crew is too tired to set the detail on time, you delay entering restricted waters, you don't delay setting the detail but keep the rest of your schedule the same. The fact that they clearly had young Sailors who weren't properly qualified to stand a normal watch much less the enhanced watches that exist in the S&A detail and officers on the bridge that didn't understand what was going on just exacerbated the issues. Every ship is required to conduct a briefing prior to entering restricted waters, during which they cover the navigational track and hazards, responsibilities of the watch, and response actions covering a variety of possible emergencies (including a loss of steering). For something like this, the Master Helmsman and Master Lee Helmsman would have briefed their actions. Unfortunately, those guys were not on the bridge to take proper action because the detail was set too late and they were apparently still eating breakfast. There are errors all along the way right up until the collision.
Overall, this is about as bad a report on the qualifications, knowledge, and adherence to sound maritime and Naval practices that I've seen in awhile, if ever.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
slowguy wrote:
Ok, so I've read through the report. As I said, not really surprising that these incidents turned out to primarily be the fault of the Navy vessels. However, some of the details are surprising, if only from a "how could it be that way?" perspective. On FITZGERALD, there was apparently some really fundamentally poor watch standing and knowledge regarding how to safely and responsibly navigate a ship. Not understanding how to use your radar, or how to stand watch as a lookout, or that you need to get on the radio to talk to ships in your vicinity are all really basic things to mess up. Lack of communication between the Pilot House, the Combat Information Center, the CO, the senior officers, etc is not a completely unusual problem, but it sounds like it was especially bad in this case.
On MCCAIN, this appears to have been a textbook chain of errors from the CO's decision to delay setting his navigation detail on through to failure to adhere to established procedures for operating the ship's steering console. On every ship I've ever sailed on, the Sea and Anchor Detail is set early to ensure all turnover is completed and all mechanical and procedural checks are done well prior to entering restricted waters. If the crew is too tired to set the detail on time, you delay entering restricted waters, you don't delay setting the detail but keep the rest of your schedule the same. The fact that they clearly had young Sailors who weren't properly qualified to stand a normal watch much less the enhanced watches that exist in the S&A detail and officers on the bridge that didn't understand what was going on just exacerbated the issues. Every ship is required to conduct a briefing prior to entering restricted waters, during which they cover the navigational track and hazards, responsibilities of the watch, and response actions covering a variety of possible emergencies (including a loss of steering). For something like this, the Master Helmsman and Master Lee Helmsman would have briefed their actions. Unfortunately, those guys were not on the bridge to take proper action because the detail was set too late and they were apparently still eating breakfast. There are errors all along the way right up until the collision.
Overall, this is about as bad a report on the qualifications, knowledge, and adherence to sound maritime and Naval practices that I've seen in awhile, if ever.
Thanks for the explication on the seamanship and other issues.
"Jesus," is all I can say. This is definitely NOT the way I remember things being run on the ships I spent time on. Sailors were focused on meeting ESWS and watchstanding quals and then on proficient watchstanding at all times, and the senior LPOs and Chiefs drilled them on it, something I clearly remember.
I'm not actually one of those "hang 'em high" types when it comes to this stuff, but some folks have gotta swing -- military discipline-wise -- over this, if what you've explained is what occurred, because it almost looks like criminal negligence in some aspects.
"Politics is just show business for ugly people."