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Re: The Sufferfest 4DP training and triathlon training. Yes, I dare start another 4DP topic. [benb] [ In reply to ]
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So you still get an ftp value from this test? I thought FTP was dead and all that... Don't they build a personal profile based on your maximal efforts and then adjust intensities based on that? So... For example my version on "the hunter" or "revolver' or whatever is different than yours etc.

If it all boils down to a single number how is that any different than the old FTP concept?

Another thing... If this is a personal power profile vs a number you scale intensity off of then shouldn't the rest intervals be different too from one person to another?


benb wrote:
Myself and my coach both got the same result as you. FTP value from the 4DP test is way down from a standalone 20min FTP test. You can definitely manually edit it though. I've done it.
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Re: The Sufferfest 4DP training and triathlon training. Yes, I dare start another 4DP topic. [sp1ke] [ In reply to ]
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Things were never supposed to boil down to a single number in the first place, but like many, Sufferfest missed the boat.
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Re: The Sufferfest 4DP training and triathlon training. Yes, I dare start another 4DP topic. [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]
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The GMAN wrote:
I hope like hell this doesn't turn into the shitshow the last thread did. I frankly don't give two fucks who thought up the concept first or who markets it better or any of that. So please keep that commentary away from this thread.

If I may quote myself.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
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Re: The Sufferfest 4DP training and triathlon training. Yes, I dare start another 4DP topic. [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]
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The GMAN wrote:
The GMAN wrote:
I hope like hell this doesn't turn into the shitshow the last thread did. I frankly don't give two fucks who thought up the concept first or who markets it better or any of that. So please keep that commentary away from this thread.

If I may quote myself.

New to the internet, eh?
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Re: The Sufferfest 4DP training and triathlon training. Yes, I dare start another 4DP topic. [sp1ke] [ In reply to ]
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sp1ke wrote:
So you still get an ftp value from this test? I thought FTP was dead and all that... Don't they build a personal profile based on your maximal efforts and then adjust intensities based on that? So... For example my version on "the hunter" or "revolver' or whatever is different than yours etc.

If it all boils down to a single number how is that any different than the old FTP concept?

Another thing... If this is a personal power profile vs a number you scale intensity off of then shouldn't the rest intervals be different too from one person to another?


benb wrote:
Myself and my coach both got the same result as you. FTP value from the 4DP test is way down from a standalone 20min FTP test. You can definitely manually edit it though. I've done it.

FTP is 1 of the 4 #s they use to make your profile. It used to be that Sufferfest just used the FTP # to scale workouts...now they use it and 3 other numbers.
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Re: The Sufferfest 4DP training and triathlon training. Yes, I dare start another 4DP topic. [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Yup. My old FTP value was 95% of the average power value derived from a standalone 20min max effort. The resultant FTP value from the sufferfest 4DP test (100% of the maximal 20min power average) is approximately 10% lower than my existing FTP despite having made some significant and noticeable performance gains since the last traditional FTP test. For example, in my last two 70.3 races, I set new bike split PBs and was able to keep the run at the desired pace, all while supposedly having an FTP that is now 10% lower.

Also, doing the prescribed workouts at the newly set FTP level makes them far too easy. I could literally cruise them without much effort.

I was basically rooted after the 5min max effort in the sufferfest 4DP test. I was on the verge of falling off the bike and vomiting.
Last edited by: benb: Dec 13, 17 13:22
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Re: The Sufferfest 4DP training and triathlon training. Yes, I dare start another 4DP topic. [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]
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holy crap. did the 4DP Full Frontal today having not been on a bike for a few months. will be looking like a cowboy strutting around the rest of the week with wobbly legs.

that five minute interval was insane. made the 20-min test afterwards seem, errr, well, never mind.

i'll be looking to utilize the 10 week Olympic distance training program Sufferfest has on offer leading up to WTS Bermuda this April.

Lars Finanger
Odyssey SwimRun
Last edited by: VALHALLA: Dec 13, 17 19:39
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Re: The Sufferfest 4DP training and triathlon training. Yes, I dare start another 4DP topic. [VALHALLA] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, as both your and benb's experience demonstrates, it's tough to combine both 5 min and 20 min maximal efforts into one session, especially as short as 1 h.

If you truly go all-out during the 5 min effort, then those with less fatigue resistance or who can go really deep into the pain cave (e.g., a pursuiter) will underperform during the subsequent 20 min effort.

OTOH, if knowing this (either consciously or unconsciously) you hold back a bit during the 5 min effort, then obviously it won't be truly maximal.

The other aspect of this to consider is that even though 95% is the right adjustment to apply *on average*, the exact relationship between 20 min power and FTP can and does vary a bit between individuals. Thus, despite all the pain and suffering involved, at the end of the day you end up with an *estimate* of FTP that isn't any more accurate or precise than can be obtained other (often easier) ways.

OTOH, testing is training and training is testing, i.e., at least you will have gotten in a good workout.
Last edited by: Andrew Coggan: Dec 14, 17 3:07
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Re: The Sufferfest 4DP training and triathlon training. Yes, I dare start another 4DP topic. [adal] [ In reply to ]
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adal wrote:
I used and still use the old sufferfest video format. The intensities given are somewhere between insane and impossible. No coach in his right mind would prescribe intensities, that are way harder than race efforts. Minimal warmups with lots of TT pace (TH Pace) even during the warmups.

I can't do revolver or ISLAGIATT at the presricbed intensities and I am a multiple Sub 5hr bike / Sub 10 hr IM finisher.

IMHO the music and videos are great, but better forget about the intensities. Let's talk about ISLAGIATT (Forget about the insanity of revolver, 16x1 [1] is very traditional VO2 training and simple is not done at max. effort):

https://thesufferfest.com/products/islagiatt

Everybody and his dog agrees, that Threshold Training is typically done in intervals with 1/2 rest time adding up to 30' (men) or 40' (women) (6-8x5, 5-7x6, 4-5x8, 3-4x10, 2-3x15, 2x20, 1x30, 1x40 ...)

Here we have 4 intervals of 15/20/20/8 Minute Duration with minimal recoveries. Most of this intervals are done at TH intensities, with lots of max accelerations. Even the warmup and cooldown include TH intensities. So the Intensity at TH is over an hour (including some "flatter sections" with just under TH).

This effort is possible, but as a race. Not when I plan to run productivly on the same or next day. So IMHO no reason to do it in TRI training.

I still use the videos (no subscription, because there is no upgrade option for those who bought most of the videos) but I do my own training prescriptions, eg I do ISLAGIATT as a medium climbing Videos, doing the warmup and CD easy and the climbs as Big Gear medium. My FTP is just over 270, depending on the time of the Season I would do the climbs at 230 watts +/- 20

And this is the reason why i am not considering sufferfest. Having bought the full video pack with no discount option when they convert to app shortly after is taking the piss.
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Re: The Sufferfest 4DP training and triathlon training. Yes, I dare start another 4DP topic. [jakesdk] [ In reply to ]
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Not 100% directly at you, but in my opinion this is why I liked just being able to buy the videos over having an app platform.

I've never found it that difficult to adjust the watts on my own. Threshold intervals, instead of doing things at 100%+ most days when doing them I hold like 95%. Knowing the zone percentages, and adjusting on the fly makes it "easier" in my mind.

I ride a "dumb" trainer over a smart one. I'd get super annoyed if the trainer stopped based on not hitting an exact percentage.
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Re: The Sufferfest 4DP training and triathlon training. Yes, I dare start another 4DP topic. [The Sufferfest] [ In reply to ]
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The Sufferfest wrote:
Yep! We'll have them available in TrainingPeaks by the end of the year and then in our own app in early 2018 when we automate training plans.

Hey David - question about this. will there be instructions in the plans about moving things around when life changes on your or unable to do some of the workouts? for example, looking at the olympic plan, i cannot do weekday transition workouts very easily, and certain days i cannot get to the pool as they are closed off for swim team events. will there be guidance on how to adjust the workouts?
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Re: The Sufferfest 4DP training and triathlon training. Yes, I dare start another 4DP topic. [Gskalt] [ In reply to ]
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Gskalt wrote:
The Sufferfest wrote:
Yep! We'll have them available in TrainingPeaks by the end of the year and then in our own app in early 2018 when we automate training plans.


Hey David - question about this. will there be instructions in the plans about moving things around when life changes on your or unable to do some of the workouts? for example, looking at the olympic plan, i cannot do weekday transition workouts very easily, and certain days i cannot get to the pool as they are closed off for swim team events. will there be guidance on how to adjust the workouts?

Hey Gskalt - It's hard to give instructions on how to move individual workouts around because the variables are so great and things change from week to week. If you think that you're going to need a lot of adjustments, then it might be best to have our partners at APEX do a custom plan for you based on off a standard template. The cost is seriously affordable (I think they're not charging enough, actually!): http://apexcoachingco.com/...fest-training-plans/

David McQuillen
Founder & CEO of The Sufferfest
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Re: The Sufferfest 4DP training and triathlon training. Yes, I dare start another 4DP topic. [The Sufferfest] [ In reply to ]
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Watching the 4dp video on YouTube, I have no interest in being a good climber, sprinter etc, I only want to be a time trial specialist so how does 4dp help me? It sounds like it’s trying to push me towards a more balanced profile but I don’t want one. Can you turn 4dp off?
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Re: The Sufferfest 4DP training and triathlon training. Yes, I dare start another 4DP topic. [EnderWiggan] [ In reply to ]
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EnderWiggan wrote:
Watching the 4dp video on YouTube, I have no interest in being a good climber, sprinter etc, I only want to be a time trial specialist so how does 4dp help me? It sounds like it’s trying to push me towards a more balanced profile but I don’t want one. Can you turn 4dp off?

Fear not! We're not trying to change you. :) Full Frontal, the 4DP fitness test, will find out where your innate strengths and weakness actually are. From there, you'll be far better positioned to pursue the goals you have in mind. If you want to be a time trial specialists, having a 4DP profile allows you to target that goal by aligning your training with exactly what you're capable of. We even have dozens of free training plans available with a subscription to help keep you on track. And, yes, if you really don't want the benefits of 4DP and prefer to train only with FTP, then you can switch your 4DP profile off.

David McQuillen
Founder & CEO of The Sufferfest
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Re: The Sufferfest 4DP training and triathlon training. Yes, I dare start another 4DP topic. [The Sufferfest] [ In reply to ]
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Sounds good, I’ll give it a try.
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Re: The Sufferfest 4DP training and triathlon training. Yes, I dare start another 4DP topic. [The Sufferfest] [ In reply to ]
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The Sufferfest wrote:

Fear not! We're not trying to change you. :) Full Frontal, the 4DP fitness test, will find out where your innate strengths and weakness actually are. From there, you'll be far better positioned to pursue the goals you have in mind. If you want to be a time trial specialists, having a 4DP profile allows you to target that goal by aligning your training with exactly what you're capable of. We even have dozens of free training plans available with a subscription to help keep you on track. And, yes, if you really don't want the benefits of 4DP and prefer to train only with FTP, then you can switch your 4DP profile off.

In order to do that does it say use the Long Scream instead of Nine Hammers for example or how does the 4DP assist in aligning to your goals? Not criticizing at all, purley trying to establish whether signing up for SF (As i has the video set) or TP (Which has all the MPC , ATL, CTL TSB metrics) is better option as with our crappy exchange rate (ZAR to USD) i can only afford one of them and being able to track my TSB seems a better option currently as i'm coming off a 2 months injury.
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Re: The Sufferfest 4DP training and triathlon training. Yes, I dare start another 4DP topic. [ScottC-M] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Scott -- Thanks for the question. When you do Full Frontal, you get your rider type, power profile, strengths and weaknesses. You can then choose from more than 100 training plans designed by Neal Henderson (coach of Cameron Dye and Flora Duffy, Rohan Dennis and Kasia Niewadoma). Those plans are focused on goals and tailored to improve your specific weaknesses (as well as build on your strengths). From there, each workout you do in The Sufferfest app is calibrated to your full 4DP profile -- not just FTP. That means, for example, that your Maximal Aerobic Intervals are based on your real Maximal Aerobic Power, not just an assumption that the app makes based off your FTP. I hope that helps -- what makes you faster are the most effective training plans and workouts and that's what we work hard to deliver. Let me know if you've got more questions that I can answer. You might also like some of our training articles (By Neal and his sports physiologist, Mac Cassin): https://thesufferfest.com/...s/training-resources

David McQuillen
Founder & CEO of The Sufferfest
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