This is a bit of a head-scratcher for me too.

I don't like to use the term "illegal" when referring to human beings. Can we just state that the ICE agents were undocumented?

Edit: And while we're at it can we just stipulate that well meaning, hard working ICE agents shouldn't always be stopped and humiliated just because they are undocumented. I believe there are studies that show their work is actually more efficient than the documented ICE workers'.

Well, the law frequently surprises me, but I find it odd that you're so unsure that federal agents need permission or a warrant to enter a private residence.

As for cops, I've dealt with plenty. Certainly enough to know that, if they are on rock solid ground and have a warrant or permission to enter or do something, they aren't shy about making sure it's well known. And I've dealt with federal agencies enough to know that if there's a controversy over something like this, and the Public Affairs people are dragged in, and the officers or agents in question had a warrant or permission to enter, it's just about the first thing the agency announces.

The fact that the agents in questions made up a ridiculous story instead of simply saying that they had the owners' authorization to enter, and that the owners haven't said they gave permission, and the agency (when asked) hasn't already stated that they had permission, is plenty of reason to suspect that they didn't, in fact, have permission.

Of course, news articles are frequently full of errors and false information, but just from reading the article, there's really no reason to assume that the agents had permission from the owner. Not a single thing in the reporting (this or the several other stories on the same incident) would indicate that.

NBC reports that the suspects' companion says the agents told him the arrest was a "mistake" when they released Bolanos. The agents reportedly acknowledged that the law says they can't come onto private property. They also reportedly claimed the residence was unoccupied - which it apparently wasn't. Reporting also indicates that the workers were trying to call the homeowners, and told the agents that the homeowners would tell them to leave, when the agents arrested Bolanos.


That's nonsense. Did you actually watch the video? The workers contact the homeowner, and she is supposedly on her way, and the agent offers to speak to her on the phone. It's pretty clear he hadn't spoken to her before that, or even known that she existed. Pair that with the rest of the video and reporting, and the fact that none of the agents just plainly stated they had permission to enter, the fact that ICE has referred the matter to their Office of Professional Responsibility, etc, and there's really no reason at all to suppose that they had previous contact with and permission from the owner.

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Slowguy

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 It's not an unfinished basement... Watch the FB video. It's above ground and elevated. You can briefly see out the windows and door. Looks like some kind of split level house.

Well, the law frequently surprises me, but I find it odd that you're so unsure that federal agents need permission or a warrant to enter a private residence.

Nope. I unsure about whether or not the agents had permission. Just as you are. Because the article avoided that question entirely. (For that matter, it's not even clear that they didn't have a warrant. They apparently didn't produce one for their suspect, but then, they wouldn't have to, would they?)

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

yeah I think watching the video and reading up on what has since transpired would clear up a lot of this.

Yeah, obviously the video (and that photo) were not from the basement. In the video, the men are very clear that the homeowner's furniture and stuff is below in the basement, as in, they are standing on the first floor.

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Slowguy

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Here's an idea. You could read some of the other articles, or watch the actual video of the encounter.

Just a thought.

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Slowguy

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And visa versa. I can never figure out why those so devoted to defending the 1st and 4th will so freely give up on the 2nd. If there is any amendment that constrains the power of the government it's knowing a vast majority of its citizenry is armed.

Are you suggesting that this situation would have turned out better if the person who recorded it had constrained the illegal action of the ICE with a weapon?

I can never quite figure out why those so devoted to defending the 2nd amendment so freely give up the 4th.

I reject the charge categorically. I'll put my record of defending the 4th amendment up against anyone else's in here.

But whose 4th amendment rights are you talking about in this case? The employer's?

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

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on this point, I definitely do think the guy at the top sets the tone. This case may be a one-off and not indicative, but it could easily be agents that feel the country should be more aggressive, and that they have a POTUS that has their back if they step on the rules a little. I thought the same when things happened under Obama like fast and furious, and the IRS scandal.

There is absolutely a change in enforcement that is directly attributable to Trump. Seems kind of weird to deny that when Trump himself and most of his supporters would proudly claim it as an accomplishment.

Personally, I think most if not all of the enforcement has little more than symbolic import (except to those deported), and it bothers me that the criteria for determining who gets targeted for enforcement is so opaque. Nobody really seems to know where the emphasis is- I was fine with aggressively targeting illegal immigrants who broke the law, and I'd be thrilled with aggressively targeted large employers who hire illegal immigrants, but the whole effort seems random and petty.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

yes, Trump's pardoning of the AZ sheriff and telling cops in NY to rough up the bad guys if needed sent a pretty clear message.

wait?! I thought you were supporting the ICE agents.... ohhhhh, you were just being argumentative before ... ahh ok. got it. food to know.

so when it's established that the ICE agents did not, in fact, have permission from the homeowners or a warrant, you'll admit the agents did not follow guidelines (aka the law)?

I am neither supporting the ICE agents nor being argumentative. I'm saying it isn't clear from the reporting in the OP that anyone did anything wrong, and even if they did, the illegal immigrant's rights haven't been violated- because it isn't his 4th amendment rights that apply in this case.

And yes, if they entered a private residence without permission, a warrant, or exigent circumstances, they did not follow the law. But that has fuck all to do with the illegal immigrant they arrested, and his rights.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

In comparison to the government the citizenry is not armed.

Moreover, you will need to try that argument on someone else as I am not after your guns and am on record saying in order to implement gun control you will have to change the 2nd amendment.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

They almost certainly needed a warrant to go in without permission. But that is a question for the court.

In regards to the 4th amendment, do you think it would be a positive for them not to in this case?

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

Well, apparently Trump's nuts are blocking orphious's view of the obvious line connecting those dots...

I’m not arguing they didn’t need a warrant if they didn’t have permission. (Though blue raiders post is interesting.)

I’m saying we don’t know if they had permission, because the *workers* permission or lack thereof is totally irrelevant. And if they didn’t have permission, it’s not the illegal immigrants rights who have been violated.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I would not be surprised to find that, if their entrance into the residence was illegal, then the subsequent arrest was also illegal, and that that’s why he was let go so quickly. Kind of a fruit of the poisonous tree sort of thing.

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Slowguy

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I wouldn't be surprised to learn that, either.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."