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Re: PM on a budget. Stages vs Left only Garmin Pedals [rmt] [ In reply to ]
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rmt wrote:
I think you're missing the point regarding the reason some people don't see the value in a power meter that measures 1 leg only and doubles it - it has nothing to do with L/R balance being a useful metric, it has to do with the fact that in the case you quoted the power numbers from a single sided meter will be up to 4% wrong.

I would agree that L/R balance is currently a pretty useless metric, that doesn't lead to a single sided power meter being accurate though. If you already know you L/R balance you will have a fair idea of how accurate it will be for you, and can make a decision about whether you're happy with that degree of accuracy. In your example you may be quite happy at 4% accuracy and therefore, for you, a single sided power meter is fine. For me a single sided power meter could be out by 10%, and I'm not happy with that accuracy. If you don't know your personal balance, then you are guessing at how accurate the numbers will be, at which point maybe HR or RPE is a better metric to be using.

Even if it were innacurate. As long as you're fed the same lie over and over consistently you can train to that. Now, if you have more than one PM I do see a need for it to be accurate, but if you only have 1, then you do not know any better. I could analogies with current politics but I will refrain
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Re: PM on a budget. Stages vs Left only Garmin Pedals [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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ianpeace wrote:
UpandDown wrote:
Between Stages and Garmin the prices are similar at $575/$600, 4iiii does come in a little cheaper.

There's some mention in percentages in this thread so I'll pile on that topic...4iiii at $399 is ~35% less expensive :)

At the Slowtwitch Coaching Power Clinic at Interbike this year pretty much the entire room of coaches were impressed the most with 4iiii. They've been on Bora-Hansgroe team for 2 full years, they invented ANT+, they have powermeters on those arm cranks that the America's Cup sailors have to hammer on to...do what exactly? trim the "sail" (which now seems to be a rigid wing)..anyway my point is: waterproof, durable, as accurate as pretty much all the other players save maybe SRM who still seems to be the gold standard.

Ian

Thanks Ian,
My original idea was the 4iii, probably to have them install it, as they don't currently have the R8000 ultegra arm.
Pedals are nice though. They seem a little easier to upgrade too. And when you do, you have all that data from garmin that will never be used...
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Re: PM on a budget. Stages vs Left only Garmin Pedals [UpandDown] [ In reply to ]
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If your balance changes from day to day you're not being fed the same lie though (your balance may, of course, not change - it may even be 50-50 so not only is the reading the same lie, it's not even a lie!). Anyway, I think this is one of those things where people have differing opinions, possibly based on their own personal experience, and that's fine.Something that is up-gradable to dual sided in the future could seem like a good compromise (though in the 4iiii costs about $150 extra over buying dual sided in the first place). I'd definitely consider a hub further. I'm sure whatever you buy you'll love it and it will help bring your cycling on.
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Re: PM on a budget. Stages vs Left only Garmin Pedals [rmt] [ In reply to ]
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rmt wrote:
If your balance changes from day to day you're not being fed the same lie though (your balance may, of course, not change - it may even be 50-50 so not only is the reading the same lie, it's not even a lie!). Anyway, I think this is one of those things where people have differing opinions, possibly based on their own personal experience, and that's fine.Something that is up-gradable to dual sided in the future could seem like a good compromise (though in the 4iiii costs about $150 extra over buying dual sided in the first place). I'd definitely consider a hub further. I'm sure whatever you buy you'll love it and it will help bring your cycling on.


I will avoid making generalizations, but for me l/r balance changes constantly throughout the ride. It changes based on power, based on fatigue level, based on cadence, incline, etc. there is just no way a left-only power meter would be accurate enough minute to minute, let alone ride to ride.

Edit: I will add that those that think that taking left-side power and doubling it to get "total power" is an acceptably accurate measure of power are probably too young to remember the debacle that was the Ergomo Pro power meter. The Ergomo Pro had great promise when it was first introduced. It was a bottom bracket-based PM, which meant you could use any crank you wanted (and any wheels, pedals, etc.). Once the data was compared to an SRM or Powertap however, the Ergomo was quickly revealed to be woefully inaccurate, and quickly fell out of favor and (as far as I can tell) went out of business. I find it terribly amusing that, 8 years later, here we are again debating whether doubling single-sided power is acceptably accurate. Those of you that feel that taking left-side power and doubling it is good enough, I'll happily sell you my used Ergomo Pro.
Last edited by: jkatsoudas: Oct 23, 17 22:18
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Re: PM on a budget. Stages vs Left only Garmin Pedals [jkatsoudas] [ In reply to ]
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actually srm and powertap did not kill ergomo, solid-axle cranks did
Last edited by: jollyroger88: Oct 24, 17 3:10
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Re: PM on a budget. Stages vs Left only Garmin Pedals [UpandDown] [ In reply to ]
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To the OP - why are you so opposed to changing out your crank?

I just got a Power2Max TypeS for $640 for my road bike, and after selling my old crank & chain rings, the power meter ended up being under $500. I've had a Power2Max on my tri bike for around 18 months with zero issues.

Just a thought.....

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Re: PM on a budget. Stages vs Left only Garmin Pedals [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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natethomas wrote:
To the OP - why are you so opposed to changing out your crank?

I just got a Power2Max TypeS for $640 for my road bike, and after selling my old crank & chain rings, the power meter ended up being under $500. I've had a Power2Max on my tri bike for around 18 months with zero issues.

Just a thought.....

because the Ultegra R8000 is sweet looking. Aesthetics aside, I agree that the Power2Max option (the Eco probably) is the best value out there.
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Re: PM on a budget. Stages vs Left only Garmin Pedals [jollyroger88] [ In reply to ]
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jollyroger88 wrote:
actually srm and powertap did not kill ergomo, solid-axle cranks did

Actually...overly sensitive installation requirements, excessive bearing drag, poor reliability, and demonstrably variable output (especially over temperature) "killed" Ergomo.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: PM on a budget. Stages vs Left only Garmin Pedals [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
jollyroger88 wrote:
actually srm and powertap did not kill ergomo, solid-axle cranks did


Actually...overly sensitive installation requirements, excessive bearing drag, poor reliability, and demonstrably variable output (especially over temperature) "killed" Ergomo.

Yeah, well... that too. ;-)

Actually, I never found it that difficult to install. The only additional requirement was to face the BB shell to ensure that the faces were perpendicular. That was a one-time thing per bike. I never had reliability issues with mine, but yeah, the bearing drag and the data variability were quite bad.
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Re: PM on a budget. Stages vs Left only Garmin Pedals [UpandDown] [ In reply to ]
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Have you looked at the Watteam Powerbeat? You can get dual-sided for under $500 and single-sided for $260. The product is fairly new (2 years) and the reviews are mixed but if you are OK with single-sided a price of $260 should be enticing enough to at least give them a try.

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Re: PM on a budget. Stages vs Left only Garmin Pedals [Lock_N_Load] [ In reply to ]
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Lock_N_Load wrote:
Have you looked at the Watteam Powerbeat? You can get dual-sided for under $500 and single-sided for $260. The product is fairly new (2 years) and the reviews are mixed but if you are OK with single-sided a price of $260 should be enticing enough to at least give them a try.

I have seen them. I'm not sure about those cables sticking out but it's a killer price
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