Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: Social Media: What Free Speech Havoc Can't it Create? [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
I'm with you. I tried hanging out with zealots. It's no fun, believe me.

Unfortunately, I don't think it's necessarily all down to zealots.

Much of it comes down to just mob mentality.

As much as there are people who will join a protest just hoping it turns violent just so they can 'kick ass' and/or rob/loot, there are people who join in on internet mobs just for sport. Just to see if they can help get someone fired, or just plain miserable.

Many people get involved in real life of internet protests over things that have very little if any impact on their own lives. Just a bunch of keyboard warriors on Reddit of 4Chan waiting to unleash holy hell on some poor sap for some minor slip.
Quote Reply
Re: Social Media: What Free Speech Havoc Can't it Create? [windywave] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
windywave wrote:

You sound like the asshats who want to protect speech as long as they agree with it. Your position is basically expression should have no consequence of any kind and people should be compelled to act a way other than their conscience when they disagree. Stalin would appreciate your candor.

?? Not sure what you're talking about.

To clarify, BK's OP is about speech between private parties. So it doesn't fall under Constitutional free speech. Yet, in the U.S. we also have a tradition not just in preventing government from interfering, but providing broad protections for private speech. And sometimes those issues intersect with Constitutional free speech.

As a topical example, Charlottesville Nazis vs. protestors. Some protestors wanted to shut down Nazi speech. So the government (local, Fed, etc) actually intervened in a way that prevented one private party from excessively interfering with the speech of another private party while on public property. Part of that is also public safety, but some of it is just the tradition of protecting people who want to speak publicly. So this is the government intervening to help a private party - nothing to do with a Constitutional restraint on government.

And sometimes there's a tough balance for the government. By regulating when, where, and how people speak on public property they're choosing to meddle in speech. Sometimes public safety trumps free speech.

The same thing extends to other issues. Say the movement to have Twitter terminate Trump's Twitter access. Not a Constitutional free speech issue at all. But it's still an issue that extraordinarily powerful private parties (Twitter, FB, Google, etc) have the power to broadly control access to very powerful tools used in modern-day expresssion.

This is sort of what BK is getting at. So far the position of most of those very powerful Internet tools is to give people a lot of rope, which I'm glad for. But giving people all that rope can have negative consequences sometimes, like this sort of mob mentality that can end up having very coercive influence on individuals and businesses.

So that's what I meant. Don't know how you arrived at "asshat who's for free speech as long as its speech I like."
Quote Reply
Re: Social Media: What Free Speech Havoc Can't it Create? [windywave] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
windywave wrote:
60 years ago if you had a coffee shop and had pictures of Stalin hanging up in it, you would have gone out of business too.

Unless it was in Greenwich Village

OK, maybe not Stalin ... Lenin or Marx, though = "pinko commie hippie fags" - Archie Bunker

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
Quote Reply
Re: Social Media: What Free Speech Havoc Can't it Create? [trail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
trail wrote:
windywave wrote:

You sound like the asshats who want to protect speech as long as they agree with it. Your position is basically expression should have no consequence of any kind and people should be compelled to act a way other than their conscience when they disagree. Stalin would appreciate your candor.

?? Not sure what you're talking about.

To clarify, BK's OP is about speech between private parties. So it doesn't fall under Constitutional free speech. Yet, in the U.S. we also have a tradition not just in preventing government from interfering, but providing broad protections for private speech. And sometimes those issues intersect with Constitutional free speech.

As a topical example, Charlottesville Nazis vs. protestors. Some protestors wanted to shut down Nazi speech. So the government (local, Fed, etc) actually intervened in a way that prevented one private party from excessively interfering with the speech of another private party while on public property. Part of that is also public safety, but some of it is just the tradition of protecting people who want to speak publicly. So this is the government intervening to help a private party - nothing to do with a Constitutional restraint on government.

And sometimes there's a tough balance for the government. By regulating when, where, and how people speak on public property they're choosing to meddle in speech. Sometimes public safety trumps free speech.

The same thing extends to other issues. Say the movement to have Twitter terminate Trump's Twitter access. Not a Constitutional free speech issue at all. But it's still an issue that extraordinarily powerful private parties (Twitter, FB, Google, etc) have the power to broadly control access to very powerful tools used in modern-day expresssion.

This is sort of what BK is getting at. So far the position of most of those very powerful Internet tools is to give people a lot of rope, which I'm glad for. But giving people all that rope can have negative consequences sometimes, like this sort of mob mentality that can end up having very coercive influence on individuals and businesses.

So that's what I meant. Don't know how you arrived at "asshat who's for free speech as long as its speech I like."

I have obviously misread or misinterpreted your post.
Quote Reply
Re: Social Media: What Free Speech Havoc Can't it Create? [windywave] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Not. 60 years ago if you had a picture of Stalin people would have expressed their displeasure. Some may leave and never come back. Then if you took the picture of Stalin down some of those people would forgive you or whatever. A lot of people might never know you had a picture of Stalin if you didn't keep it up for weeks. At least in most places where the kind of people who would put up a picture of Stalin would live. Now reactions are way out of proportion. No context. That is one of the reasons we allow people privacy it allows context. You now see one thing about someone and know nothing else and responding the way these people did is just wrong.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Quote Reply
Re: Social Media: What Free Speech Havoc Can't it Create? [efernand] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
efernand wrote:
Quote:
I'm with you. I tried hanging out with zealots. It's no fun, believe me.


Unfortunately, I don't think it's necessarily all down to zealots.

Much of it comes down to just mob mentality.

As much as there are people who will join a protest just hoping it turns violent just so they can 'kick ass' and/or rob/loot, there are people who join in on internet mobs just for sport. Just to see if they can help get someone fired, or just plain miserable.

Many people get involved in real life of internet protests over things that have very little if any impact on their own lives. Just a bunch of keyboard warriors on Reddit of 4Chan waiting to unleash holy hell on some poor sap for some minor slip.

#1. Some people just want to watch the world burn. They fall into the first group of protesters you described.

#2. Other people, owing to the way social media works, now go from zero to full-on outrage in oh-point-two-seconds. They fall into the second group of protesters you described. The nature of social media assists them in this regard, because it can broadcast their outrage to thousands or even millions of others in a very, very short amount of time.

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."
Quote Reply
Re: Social Media: What Free Speech Havoc Can't it Create? [trail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
trail wrote:
windywave wrote:


Sometimes public safety trumps free speech.

Very much agree with this

Ad Muncher
Quote Reply
Re: Social Media: What Free Speech Havoc Can't it Create? [softrun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
softrun wrote:
trail wrote:
windywave wrote:


Sometimes public safety trumps free speech.


Very much agree with this

Ad Muncher

No, it doesn't.

No secret that I'm a First Amendment/free speech absolutist. There can be no compromise -- outside of the already-tightly-defined parameters laid out by the Supreme Court, and its so-called "Crying fire in a crowded theater" exception. This includes no compromise when it comes to the illogically named "hate speech," either.

The answer to "bad" or "hate" speech is more and better "good" speech, not some stricture laid down by government. I get the sense that the people who want to shut down certain kinds of speech these days have never heard the word "no" before in their lives. They also all seem to have benefited from participation ribbons and trophies and a lifetime of being told what brilliant -- and very, very special -- people they are.

Okay, that last is a little hyperbolic, but there seem to me to be plenty of people these days who are growing increasingly comfortable with carve-outs to rights that are stated in the Constitution as being "unalienable," meaning they can't be taken away from us, and that government by, for and of the people exists only to protect those rights, not diminish them.

We established our form of government in the U.S. specifically so that it could protect our rights, in other words. When you get people demanding that the government should start taking those rights away, or just circumscribing them, then we have a potentially serious problem on our hands.

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."
Quote Reply
Re: Social Media: What Free Speech Havoc Can't it Create? [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
big kahuna wrote:
softrun wrote:
trail wrote:
windywave wrote:


Sometimes public safety trumps free speech.


Very much agree with this

Ad Muncher


No, it doesn't.

No secret that I'm a First Amendment/free speech absolutist. There can be no compromise -- outside of the already-tightly-defined parameters laid out by the Supreme Court, and its so-called "Crying fire in a crowded theater" exception. This includes no compromise when it comes to the illogically named "hate speech," either.

The answer to "bad" or "hate" speech is more and better "good" speech, not some stricture laid down by government. I get the sense that the people who want to shut down certain kinds of speech these days have never heard the word "no" before in their lives. They also all seem to have benefited from participation ribbons and trophies and a lifetime of being told what brilliant -- and very, very special -- people they are.

Okay, that last is a little hyperbolic, but there seem to me to be plenty of people these days who are growing increasingly comfortable with carve-outs to rights that are stated in the Constitution as being "unalienable," meaning they can't be taken away from us, and that government by, for and of the people exists only to protect those rights, not diminish them.

We established our form of government in the U.S. specifically so that it could protect our rights, in other words. When you get people demanding that the government should start taking those rights away, or just circumscribing them, then we have a potentially serious problem on our hands.

I grow up in a communist country and have experienced first hand the limitations of freedom of speech. BUT....there is a limit to everything. If I invest hundreds of thousands of dollars in a business (coffee shop, grocery store etc) and tens of thousands of dollars in a car I want those things protected, including my safety. Now, if a bunch of people exercise their absolute freedom of speech and start talking and protesting and their speech provokes other group to counter-protest/counter-speak and it all leads to violence as it often does, I don't want my property or my person to be damaged because some masked hoodlum has all the freedom but shows total disrespect for other people's safety and property. I don't want my car torched because of it. And how can I protect my property if the government won't because of all the freedoms? With a shotgun (second amendment, stand your ground etc) ? I don't mind if people talk all they want. But if it leads to damaging my property and harming somebody, I draw a line there. Go and exercise your right to talk and protest but no damaging anything or harming anybody, please.
Quote Reply

Prev Next