I understand that in certain fringe sports, the numbers participating are so low that travel, and its related costs, are necessary. My two oldest kids were heavily involved in cycling, which was a relatively expensive sport re both equipment and travel. (Yes, there were sponsorships, but those also came with strings.) Not a problem for us, but the expenses involved ruled out a number of kids' prolonged involvement.

Given how popular soccer is at the youth level, there should be no need for expensive travel teams. At that level, it's not a fringe sport, and the level of competition should still be sufficient for development purposes. I recognize the need for good coaching, and that there's a cost to that. (And I recognize that a lot of this "coaching" is shit.) But other than coaching, it should be a low cost sport.

Good thing my youngest is into climbing. Not for competition, which I always thought was a little lame, but for fun.

I've noticed that most the time when a team loses the refs are at fault, it's much less of a problem if the team wins :)

That being said, my daughter's team was bounced from the state tourney in part do to a lack of an offside call. The kid who was the assistant ref admitted at half he didn't know he was suppose to flag for offside, he thought it was the center refs job. How the fuck do you play soccer, go through the process of becoming a ref and not know as an assistant ref offside is your responsibility?

I know people are complaining a lot about money in this thread. FWIW this is travel soccer but it's organized by towns park and rec. It doesn't cost very much, I think about $100 or so. Maine might be fairly unique since population is low, but here there are higher cost clubs, they compete in Spring leagues, then there is this low cost, town organized Fall travel league (although now that I think about it some clubs compete in this too but it's almost all town teams). There's a local rec league in both the Spring and Fall, I think, maybe just Fall.

Well, its a wonder you have referees at all in youth sport, what with your calls constantly being questioned, your intelligence insulted, getting yelled at on a regular basis. It is the only job where you are expected, no required to perform perfectly 100 per cent of the time. And we're talking about kids most of the time. Most kids who start refereeing give it up quickly due to the regular ongoing abuse by the parents and coaches of the sport, many of whom do not know the rules themselves.
As a coach, I will make a point of discreetly pointing out a call I disagree with (not that it will make a difference) but am always respectful as it is a job I certainly would not want to do myself.

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A false humanity is used to impose its opposite, by people whose cruelty is equalled only by their arrogance

At least where we are it's pretty rare with youth soccer. My son played all the way until high school and my daughter is playing now and from easily 100+ games I can count on one hand the number of times someone has really given it to a ref beyond the typical sort of moans when a call goes against a team. Usually it's been some old guy (or a coach) who seems to take as a normal thing to yell at refs.

Son is playing high school soccer now, much more fan bitching at refs.

I know people are complaining a lot about money in this thread. FWIW this is travel soccer but it's organized by towns park and rec. It doesn't cost very much, I think about $100 or so. Maine might be fairly unique since population is low, but here there are higher cost clubs, they compete in Spring leagues, then there is this low cost, town organized Fall travel league (although now that I think about it some clubs compete in this too but it's almost all town teams). There's a local rec league in both the Spring and Fall, I think, maybe just Fall.


My son when he was a teenager played first soccer then basketball at a high level. There was some travel involved, but it did not seem excessive.

However, I caught part of a CNN Business piece on TV when sitting in an Airport Departure Lounge recently, and it was apparent that this Sports Travel has become a much bigger business than I imagined. It profiled several mid-sized US towns/cities that, had recently fallen on harder times, with the departure of other businesses, and were banking significantly on making themselves, major destinations, for these large sports tournaments (baseball, soccer and basketball were featured) - building major sports infrastructure - massive multiple sports fields, and large indoor gymnasiums, and with concurrent plans for hotels and restaurants to be built as well.

I had no idea that it had reached this level! It was a "wow" moment! Particularly, when parents were being interviewed, and they were saying how much they were spending on this sports travel - it was thousands and thousands of dollars a year per child!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Quick funny story. Hockey related so it may or may not apply to open field sports. My wife made a comment to me once about how I never say much in the stands while all of the other parents are shouting and I replied that they can't hear what you're saying at all so it is a waste of energy, other than cheering for good plays.
I know this as from the other side of the rink, on the bench with the kids as a coach, you can't make out a thing from the fans.
My son got called up last Sunday to fill in for the goaltender last minute for the older age group of kids. He played really well, made some great saves and the parents were shouting encouraging things to him the whole time. Even goals he let in, they continued to shout things like "shake it off, goalie" or "good try goalie". Extremely supportive and to be honest, quite heartwarming. After the game, everyone told him how well he did and I asked him if he heard all of the cheering in the stands for him. He didn't hear any of it. At all.

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A false humanity is used to impose its opposite, by people whose cruelty is equalled only by their arrogance

I agree about always being respectful. I would never yell at a ref. Friend of mine was baseball ump in Virginia and he quit after a couple of seasons because of parents yelling at him. My son starting reffing soccer this year, you have to be 14 to do it. He watches a lot of soccer, has played since he was a kid, understands the game. Lot's of young kids I've seen assistant ref, really seem clueless as far as calling offside goes. Mostly being totally out of position to make a call and/or being afraid to call anything. I've seen older center refs have to come over and talk to assistant ref because they aren't calling it. It's 50/50 whether a ref understands the back pass rule or not since it's relatively new.

School soccer around here it's old men who can hardly move which poses it's own set of challenges. And they use American football signals not soccer signals for fouls, which is just odd.

The turnover in soccer refereeing is crazy. When I took a U.S. Soccer coaching course early this year, the instructor said that the number of active referees in the state of Indiana had decreased by about 40% over the last couple of years because of the parents. I think they get paid $20-$25 a game - which is pretty good money for a high school kid, I would think - but it isn't worth the abuse.

My daughters were in a local rec league starting in U10. I ended up coaching because they were desperate for coaches and I managed to pass the background check. I did a lot of self-study, took some courses, got licensed, and did the best I could. In 2 seasons of U10, we did pretty well. In 2 seasons of U12, we didn't win much, but the girls and I had a lot of fun. The league was stacked so the President of the club's daughter's team could win. I had a scrub team of mostly new players, which was fine with me - this is supposed to be about having fun and being part of a team.

I tried an MVP program where I would buy ice cream for an MVP of each game, as voted by the parents. My master plan was to try to get them to focus on watching kids do good things rather than beat up their own kids for everything they did "wrong." Yeah, brilliant plan, Trav. I couldn't get them to even participate in the voting - I was told by one parent that they refused because they weren't allowed to vote for their own kid. So I ended up having the kids vote, which I should have done from the beginning, because the kids really showed some teamwork and compassion - there were times I started to tear up because of why they chose someone as the MVP. Kids can be pretty awesome, even if their parents should have never been allowed to have them. Then I couldn't even get the parents to bring their kid to the ice cream shop after the game so I ended up sending gift certificates to keep my promise to the kids. I'm an unpaid volunteer spending my own time and money. And don't even get me started about the total silence when I asked parents to be an assistant coach, how often they showed up late or not at all without at least letting me know. I don't know how many times I put together a practice plan for a team of 14, only to have 6-8 show up for practice and then have to make up things as I go.

Of course, I had parents tell me that everything I did was wrong because we weren't winning enough. One parent suggested that I needed to bench the kids that sucked, if they didn't show up for practice they got benched, and that's what he did when he coached flag football a few years ago.

One parent told me that our practices went too long and I needed to respect her time. I reminded her that they were optional and the kids can leave whenever they need to - this is rec league soccer, so I completely understand that we have other things going on in life. As long as the kids have fun, I'll be there for them and will stick around if they want to play a little longer. Her response was to repeat, "well, you need to respect MY time!" I had to turn and walk away, I was so mad. I reported a couple of parents to the President of the league.

When my daughter said "Dad, I want to try something different" after our spring season, I was so relieved. Never again. Most of the parents were really good and nice people. Even some of the dickheads meant well. But, it just takes a couple of assholes to ruin it for everybody.

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Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador

I was lucky, coached both of my kids when I they were just starting out and never had to deal with over the top parents. Most were just grateful someone was willing to do it.

The worst part about parents is that they seldom understand the variable composition of youth teams, and the tremendous gulf of talent that exists between players at different levels of physical development. Couple that with the fact that good coaches are far more concerned with proper play than with the score line, and you've got a recipe for parental revolt. In my 30 years of soccer involvement, I like to imagine that I've seen it all... but I'm still surprised from time to time.

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"The right to party is a battle we have fought, but we'll surrender and go Amish... NOT!" -Wayne Campbell

Same problem here with lack of officials in youth hockey where its mostly older guys and young kids, and the kids quit after getting tooled on by coaches and parents. I coach youth hockey and I'm not one to get on the officials, but I did have an odd exchange with a ref before a game earlier this year. I had never met this guy before or seen him do a game, and usually the refs come over to the benches during warm-ups and introduce themselves to the coaches for both teams and it's cordial. This one skates over to me and says "I'm just going to say this once - if you or any of your players or coaches say anything to me during the game, I'll throw you out and report you to the league and have you suspended for the next game." Setting ground rules is one thing but this one had a chip on his shoulder, as if he was looking for a confrontation.

My brother-in-law refs lacrosse games from youth up through collegiate level. He did a high school championship game this past spring where he had to make a tough call late in a close game. Team that had the call go against them was pissed and they wound up losing, and the coaches, players and a few parents actually followed him out to his car afterwards and surrounded it, blocking him from leaving and pushing/pounding against it at one point. He had to call the cops from inside the car in order to get out of there.

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"You can never win or lose if you don't run the race." - Richard Butler

The worst part about parents is that they seldom understand the variable composition of youth teams, and the tremendous gulf of talent that exists between players at different levels of physical development. Couple that with the fact that good coaches are far more concerned with proper play than with the score line, and you've got a recipe for parental revolt. In my 30 years of soccer involvement, I like to imagine that I've seen it all... but I'm still surprised from time to time.


When my son was playing high level soccer, I was witness to some absolutely terrible parental behavior.

He moved on to basketball at age 14. I recall a post-game drive home, after yet another contentious soccer match, and he said, "It's just not fun anymore, Dad". He'd been recruited directly by a local Basketball coach, to play for one of the top local club teams in our area. I found the scene, in basketball, a bit more chill - less outrageous parental behavior - although, you could still occasionally see/hear it.

I have a distinct memory of going and watching his first soccer game playing for the rep/club team when he was about 10 years old. I was seated in the side-line next to a woman, that would literally NOT stop talking and yelling. She'd yell at the ref. Question almost every call. She'd be telling players to do things, that almost always was counter to what the coach had just told them to do! She would yell, at the other parents. About mid match, she turned to me and said, "You are awfully quiet". I said back to her, "I just like to watch the kids run around and have a great time". She looked back at me like I was from outer-space!

I competed at the national level in Canada in both running and triathlon. When I talk to other parents, who did compete at this level in those sports or other sports, they are the ones that are most likely to get it. The WORST behaved parents are the ones who seem to have no clue about what it's like to compete in anything at a high level! Obviously, by and large this is the vast majority, of parents who have kids playing in youth-sports.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

At one of my son's JV soccer games this year there was a mom from the other team camped out in her chair yelling nonstop. At one point she said to the Assistant Ref "don't pay any attention to me, I don't even know the rules" yet it never stopped her from complaining about any call that went against her team.

There are so many good points here. The rec league my daughter played in was a perfect example of variable composition - at ages 11-12, there is a huge difference in the kids, mentally, emotionally, and physically. We had 5 teams in our league - 2 hand-picked superteams (one of which hasn't lost in 4 seasons) and 3 scrub teams.

Of our 8 regular season games, I think 5 were against the superteams, so we really had only 3 games where we got to play the other scrub teams and had a shot at something other than a total blowout. In those three games, we tied twice and won once with a score of 1-0. Those were the most fun games to watch and play. We also managed to hang with the superteams pretty well a couple of times. Most importantly, with every practice and game, I could see the kids get better as individual players, as people, and as a team. That's all that really matters.

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Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador

Could be worse

https://www.theguardian.com/...nsation-social-media

So I've been coaching for 25 some odd years. All of that swimming at various levels - club, high school, and summer league. I've had some decent teams (sectional champions, undefeated teams, blah blah blah) and coached kids from beginners to Olympic trials qualifiers. I've also coached soccer a number of times. I coached high school girls JV soccer, Middle school boys soccer team, indoor soccer for high school kids and my sons teams when they were younger. I also coached some good teams in soccer (undefeated girls team) mediocre boys teams and a couple of teams that could not buy a win.

By far, not even close, the most trouble I ever had as a coach were with the two lowest level programs I coached

I got canned from a summer swim team because we didn't win. Of course the fact that I could't find a 15-18 year old kid who could break 30 seconds in the 50 free did not enter into the equation and the rest of the team was not so hot either. I remember one parent having a fit because her kid couldn't do a flip turn. Of course the fact that he didn't come to practice nor did he ever practice flip turns ever factor into her thinking. I used to just shake my head at that stuff. And then I got fired because the team stunk and Johnny couldn't do a flip turn. Sigh.....Yeppers. Meanwhile, If I recall correctly I had just come off a winter season where my high school team made it to the state team finals and I was doing going work coaching Y Nats qualifiers at our local YMCA. And I was taking kids who were just high school only swimmers and turning them into county champs or state qualiers. No mean feat I tells ya.

Even better, a few years back I was coaching my sons U-11 travel team. We were the B team in our age group in the "B" Travel league. There was another travel league in town that played at a higher level. So basically, I was coaching the fourth best U-11 team in our town. Not in the league, in our town. I think we were something like flight 4-5 and most of the kids on my team had played flight 6-7 the year before. It was the most stressful coaching experience I've ever had bar none. I had kids who could not head, trap, or pass the ball properly. Not one player on our team had the leg strength to cross the ball from the corner into the box. Not one. Including my own son. We got blown out. A lot. The parents complained. A lot. They yelled. A lot. We ended up something like 2-7-1. Right before the last game of the year an email was sent out to the entire team, me, and the league Administrators from a number of parents calling for a meeting to suggest a "new direction" for the team come the spring season. I told the league President that I would not attend such a meeting, nor would my son and I be back in the spring. We then played the last game of the season and tied the best team in our division 0-0. Never did a tie feel sweeter. My son and I walked away and never looked back. I'm sure all those kids who played on that team are getting soccer scholarships now....

I umpired from 12 years old through college. House League was fine for the most part and the commissioner basically told the coaches not to mess with the umpires and an ejection was a one game suspension for coaches and parents alike. I didn't have as quick a thumb as some of my compatriots and usually said something to the effect "this is 12 year old kids, you really want to explain why you had to leave?" It didn't hurt I was 6'4 235 pounds from freshman year onward. Travel was a bit more intense. My favorite was when some asshat comes out to argue balls and strikes and asks about my credentials yadda yadda. I told him I was a varsity catcher for the number two ranked team in the state so I had a decent idea of the strike zone. Two innings later he got tossed for arguing a balk.

That is funny, the videos shown aren't even impressive. The kid looks okay at soccer for his age.

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~Brad

I love youth sports in many ways. I think it can teach many great life lessons. I'm president of our youth softball and baseball programs for our area. We do travel leagues for those sports from 9 to 19 years old. It really helps the kids excel and we have helped send many kids on college scholarships and that is ultimately our goal, to teach kids to be better people through sports.

With that said, parents are insane. I have never understood how parents can wear "parent goggles" with their kids and see a below average kid and think they're the next Babe Ruth. It boggles my mind. I have four sons, my oldest is excellent at baseball. He was invited to and just made the Under Armour National Team for 14 year olds at 13. He has a lot of talent, but I think he will be limited ultimately because of his work ethic (lack of it). My second son isn't an athlete, and that is fine! People just think that every one of their kids is a super star. My hope for my oldest son who is very talented is just to play in college and see where that goes.

I am also a baseball umpire at the varsity HS level and start basketball officiating last year. Fans and parents are just crazy as explained in my story earlier. In basketball last year I had to eject 4 fans and gave technical fouls a bunch for kids and coaches. I try to do my best at all times and enjoy knowing the rules. I know there are terrible officials out there. I hate watching and working with them as much as the next guy. I don't even mind loud mouth people, I just hate IGNORANT loud people or people who get personal. Argue a call all day long, but there is no need to get personal.

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~Brad

Yeah but for soccer if your goal is to be a professional rather than get a college scholarship, that's probably increasing his odds several fold, even if it's still a long shot. He must be excellent for his age or Roma wouldn't be interested. The way we do it in the U.S. just doesn't cut it.

I ref'd soccer in chicago - a kids league on the lake between belmont and the top of the drive. Cant remember what the league was called