The resemblance is amazing.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

So what does trump's hair say about him?

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“Read the transcript.”

I've read that she's a close friend of the family, and that the call came when she was in the vehicle with family, so General Kelly's criticism about her participation in general is unwarranted and affirms his function primarily as WH operative using his gravitas in that area to his advantage. And if she was in fact approached by the media and reporting events as everyone present perceived them, I'd say it's a less than generous interpretation of the President's good will gesture (I'm guessing they weren't big Trump fans to begin with), but not the odious scenario General Kelly painted.

The rock star comment was unnecessary. The entire situation is sad and deserves more solemn treatment. She's playing it like a poker hand, and it's unseemly, and I don't give anyone a pass when their reflex reaction to criticism is "RACIST!!!" particularly when they've already admitted to not having a clue what was intended by it.

General Kelly's breakdown of the process was valuable for people to understand why that should remain private and out of bounds, politically. But he himself interjected politics by the way he treated the Congresswoman, and how he dismissed the President's instigation and culpability in what followed. The fact that he not-so-subtly implicated Trump in everything that he sees wrong with today's culture of self-serving irreverence (treatment of women, Gold Star families, etc.) doesn't excuse his own participation in that degradation even if it serves the purpose of preserving the integrity of the institution he's obligated to protect.

I've heard reports that Trump initially refused to sign those letters the day after their reported deaths, and that he promised a family $25k (just one? and why, exactly?) and only produced it when the media called him out on it.

Any clarifying information on those points?

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

I'm not joining any of your protest movements, because that sounds like a really Bad Idea (tm).

That'd be a good analogy, except I don't think the players have used the flag symbol directly? (I could be wrong, I don't follow it super closely). They just kneel or link arms during the national anthem, is my understanding. To extrapolate that to them being un-American in some way is a stretch. They don't burn flag, or sit on them, or pee on them or anything.

In any case "what the flag represents" is such a broad generality. Are you saying that if you use the flag to express some sort of discontent in any way that you automatically hate anything and everything that is "American." That's a little to convenient. If you were to ask Eric Reid (who seems quite articulate) if he hates what the flag represents I don't think you'd get that answer. Are the European futbol clubs who've been mimicing the act also disrespecting the U.S. flag?

I think you're projecting the rationale on the players that most easily lets you dislike them and casually dismiss them. Rather than the rationale they're actually using.

(And I'm not really fan of this form of protest - I don't think it's been clearly articulated (Reid excepting), and it's been water down to near nothingness already).

Resemblance true, probably could whip the carny in chief's arse.

This is Kaepernick's doing. His first explanation for sitting is that he wouldn't "stand for a flag that represents a country that oppresses black people and people of color." Now, every player that followed his lead is presumed to hold those same feelings--that the flag is a symbol of black oppression.

So the flag itself is the symbol being protested, for what they believe it symbolizes. I fully grant that not every participant holds that same view (most probably just want to draw attention to an "imperfect union" and police brutality primarily affecting blacks), but by joining his protest, the onus is on them to clarify what exactly they're trying to communicate, if it is indeed apart from what Kaepernick set forth as the premise.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

i don't know about you, but i have speech after speech, interview after interview, articles written in newspapers, by these NFL players. have you read eric reid's piece in the NYT, which carefully lays out the rationale by which both reid and kaepernick decided to take a knee. if you haven't read it, it's compelling.

so, i think your expectation is reasonable that these players give their explanations, and it's their reasonable expectation that when they comply that you acknowledge it, and perhaps even listen to it. consider it.

aaron rodgers perfectly states my own position, which is that he would stand, but he also understands why others would kneel. i suspect that if you were in a locker room with men who take the kaepernick position, and you took time to listen to them, as rodgers did, it's possible you might come to rodgers' conclusion. i don't know.

either way, kaepernick's view, reid's view, the other NFL players, everyone who i've heard and read, all form the same thesis for why they are kneeling during the anthem.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I've read it, and I've defended kneeling as a respectful gesture more than once on this forum. I stand by that position, even if I disagree with the premise of some of the protesters.

I was only commenting on whether the flag as a symbol is the target of the protest, and it clearly is. As a protest movement, though, personal statements considered, there is a message problem in that there appears to be no unified voice as to the goals and proposals, and only one face--Kaepernick's--that does little to win people to their argument.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Family, friends, military veterans gather to remember Sergeant La David T. Johnson.

"Three soldiers dressed in military fatigues marched up to Sgt. La David Terrence Johnson's flag-draped casket, stopped, saluted and marched away.

The solemn scene played out several times Friday night as dozens of people – some who knew him and some who did not – paid their respects to the fallen Miami Gardens soldier, who died Oct. 4 with three other American servicemen in an ambush attack in Niger in West Africa.

"I can only imagine the pain his family is feeling right now," said Vietnam veteran L. C. Deal, who wore a black hat embossed with "Vietnam Veteran" and an olive green dress military jacket. "I came here for the family.""

Family, veterans remember sergeant slain in Niger; No mention of controversy - U.S. - Stripes

It appears the ambush may have been the result of a "massive intelligence failure" starting all the way from US AFRICOM on down, and that the soldiers and the 12-man patrol unit they were part of were lured into the ambush. No drone or manned air asset orbiting overhead to provide real-time intelligence or air support, no QRF, or quick reaction force, nearby to provide backup, and it was only because French fighter jets arrived on scene to suppress the enemy attack that more Soldiers didn't become casualties.

Possibly, men on motorcycles in a village through which the patrol was moving attracted that patrol's attention, drawing them to what's called a "red zone." This is a direct fire battle space, one in which enemy fighters send heavy fire at our troops. It expands or contracts based on the fluidity of the tactical situation.

Within a red zone lies the kill zone, or kill box. It's the area where our troops most likely walked right into something called a "fire sack." That's where the enemy -- those ISIS fighters -- brought "technicals" (pickups or jeep-type vehicles equipped with heavy machine guns or some sort of big-bore rifle) to bear against the patrol and it's where the enemy meant to destroy it. If that's truly the case, it's a wonder that eight out of the 12 Soldiers survived enemy contact.

I have no idea what the warning order (WARNO) was for this patrol, nor if time or mission had priority. I'm only going by publicly available reports and purely speculating on the patrol's movements, whether it had point, rear and flank security and what they may have seen when advancing to contact. It's a hell of thing, and if true, the enemy obviously had been studying the patrolling habits of our forces in that particular sector, because it was a well-planned and coordinated ambush rather than just a contact with resulting free fire and melee characteristics.

Niger Ambush Came After 'Massive Intelligence Failure,' Source Says - NBC News

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

From that NYT article Eric Reid says, "All I knew for sure is that I wanted it to be as respectful as possible." So he got together with the guy in the Nazi outfit (to continue with my analogy).

I feel sorry for Eric Reed. I believe he meant well. However, by the time he got involved in the protest, CK was already sitting during the playing of the anthem without any mind for taking a knee. CK had already expressed that he won't "show pride for a country that oppresses black people". CK had started wearing his "cops as pigs" football socks. CK was also at press conferences sporting his t-shirt aggrandizing ex Cuban Dictator Fidel Castro. We all know Fidel Castro as someone that obviously CAN be proudly respected in the oppression department.

It doesn't matter how much white-washing is done. It doesn't matter how much revisionist history is undertaken. Everyone knows how this whole thing really started.

Regardless, if there was any level of miscommunication and the grieving family misunderstood the sentiment from the CIC to be disrespectful, one would hope he would have the decency to make another private call, or send a private letter to make absolutely clear his appreciation for his service and sacrifice.

The last thing you'd want to do is continue a spat that you started before the body is even in the ground, and insulting the Gold Star family's personal friend who stood by their side and voiced their concern about their treatment.

And, naturally, that's exactly what he'll do. Let no low road go untraveled.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

i don't know that drilling down to whether it's the flag or the anthem gets to the issue. saying the players dishonor our men and women fighting overseas doesn't help (you aren't saying that, but many are taking that leap). to me, what i'm hearing over and over is this:

1. the league is overwhelmingly black, that is, the players are black. as in, 80 or so percent. these players are feted on the field, but they and their families are disproportionately (they feel) targeted by the entire criminal justice system (police harassment, brutality, killing), and incarceration.

2. they have demonstrated their worth to society, not simply by playing football, but what they do off the field.

3. their patriotism is called into question, including by the president, when they choose not to sing "let freedom ring" when for them freedom isn't ringing the way it is for white people.

my hope, and my suspicion, is that the league will find a way to listen to the players, publicly, make a stand publicly, as a league, owners and all, and make equality a big issue. the league has wrapped itself with the flag, and with the military, and the military wraps itself with the league. making racial equality, as it is expressed on streets, an initiative of equal visibility and weight would probably do it.

if so i think it will all have been for good. and trump will of course take credit for it.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Kelly was just reading (very dramatically) a speech prepared by the Trump team. I have not read any coherent criticism of Wilson (she was just honestly answering questions from media after Trump made this an issue, and after Trump alerted media that he had made the call). Trump looks the worst after this scuffle in my mind.

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

Kelly might have had help writing the speech, but it was very much designed to be based off Kelly's own experiences and knowledge. He owns every word - the good ones and the bad ones.

I think Wilson could have taken a higher road. She didn't have to escalate and continue to thrust this formerly private government function further into the circus zone. She seemed to have very specific intent in the way she answered the question. Now she could have been acting as an agent of her constituent, the widow of Sgt. La David T. Johnson. If the widow had indicated that she wanted to communicate her feeling of disrespect, than Wilson may have been an appropriate person to do that. However in Ms. Wilson's shoes, I would have exhausted every *private* avenue of communication before going public. Instead Wilson jumped feet-first and seemingly with relish right into the Trump Circus. Not good.

 Could you provide a link to transcript or video of Wilson's original comments? I've googled without success.

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

I think this is it.

My take is when the CNN host asked "What did he say?" that Wilson should have said, "I'm sorry, that was a private conversation." Unless the widow explicitly released Wilson to discuss it freely, which I have no idea is the case or not.

I'm thinking the part about the FBI building came from someone else. He would have no reason to know about that. It would be fun to see the meeting once he found out it was completely wrong.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

Thanks for that. I'm still curious about the timeline as one piece I read said some interviews took place right when they got out of the limousine. Maybe this was not her initial comments.

Yeah, I guess you are right she should have said nothing, but I'm giving her a pass. The dumb ass President made these calls an issue when he criticized Obama for not making calls. That was classless and opened the door for this.

Nothing I've heard from Wilson makes it look like she is attention seeking. She seems genuine. I trust that as a friend of the family her remarks were ok with the family. She seems very level headed and rational. The "rock star" comment was made when passing a gaggle of reporters and she seemed a genuinely surprised by the media scrum and made an offhand remark -- which I took as self-deprecating, not self-aggrandizing ("I have to tell my kids I'm a rock star.").

One thing I like about Trump is that he has pushed back against the media-political obsession with hanging people over a few words. If you don't say something just right, you career can be over. As a result we get politicians who only mouth rehearsed talking points and don't say what they are thinking at the moment. I give Trump the benefit of the doubt with many of his supposedly heretical statements. I'm giving her the same on the rock star thing. She was trying to be self-deprecating.

To some (like the guy named Kay), I'm a Trump ballwasher, and I don't recall ever taking the democratic side here, but I'm taking her side.

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

No reason to know about it?

"I was still on active duty, and I went to the dedication of the new FBI field office in Miami."

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----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

    Not sure if it was against the family's wishes to be so public in her thoughts, so the only thing I see that reflects badly on Wilson is the seeming attempt to bring RACISM! into the back and forth. OTOH, I give her much kudos for the below. We talk often about blacks in America, and what can be done to make improvements...looks like she has been part of something on the solution side.
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"-- Although she started out in education, she’s been an elected official for a quarter century. Wilson’s first elected position came in 1992 when she left a post as principal of Miami Gardens’ Skyway Elementary School to join the Miami-Dade School Board. While there, she started an in-school mentoring program for disadvantaged youth called 5000 Role Models of Excellence. The deceased soldier at the center of the Trump phone call controversy, Sgt. La David Johnson, was a graduate of the program. Indeed, Wilson was in the car with Johnson’s widow when Trump made the call because she had known the deceased since his childhood."
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http://www.sun-sentinel.com/...-20171020-story.html

Agree with all this.

Further I tend to believe that she's been part of the solution, and not the typical black politician, because of what she said in the clip first linked by Trail above (CNN here):


(at around 2:40 - my transcription) Not many black politicians that will acknowledge that truth. Listen to her say that. Moving.

Just before she says that, she calls Trump to task for disrespecting all servicemen by politicizing this issue.

How many on the right have heard Rep. Wilson's comments in full (both CNN interview and full rockstar comment which includes the context)? Rush and Hannity weren't playing them in full (I had radio on and know this), I bet foxnews didn't play that whole clip.

I'm not sure of the political ramifications (depends on how the story finally gets told to most people), but I have Wilson as the unanimous winner over Trump in this match. Politically, Kelly kept Trump in the game, but in terms of the match, Trump tapped out when he had to go to Kelly for help. Not often that Trump ducks out of a contest and lets others speak for him.

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

agree with much of what you've said, but disagree with this. like most bullies, he's a coward. he always gets others to do the dirty work.

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

Well, there goes that theory. I was still holding to the fantasy there was at least one semi-honorable man in Washington.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

Now it makes sense.... Her grandmother was Bartholomewena Cubbins.

Maybe Roy Moore is her kin?