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Re: Lionel Sanders haters eat crow here [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
A few things.....I don't know how many guys have improved to the level of what a LS has done in the time frame he has done it, from AG racing (almost rag tag knucklehead type of approach...and I mean that in a good way) to this level in 7 years. I better not say more cus I don't want to be accused of being in his fan club. I gave him a ton of shit for racing Kona last 2 years with the mental shape he did them in (eta: I should explain that- he showed up in Kona with weird expectations for his fitness/mental levels + he didn't seem to really be in "it"), and to change in 1 year the way he has.....it's pretty good turn around.

2nd, I find one thing strange is that I'm surprised a guy of his caliber of runner didn't "feel" the pace was too hot initially out of T2 for what the first 45 mins. He said he thought his watch was reading 4:12/k pace when he was actually running what 3:50ish/k pace. That's sorta a big difference atleast when you start talking about after 20 or so mins. That's like a 2 min difference in 5k pace, that's almost a zone difference. But that's just super over analyzing.

3rd, to make a guy have to run a 2:40 marathon and do it back to back years, that's both crazy odd luck, and just shows you the pedigree of athlete Lange has become.

Really was outstanding race, didn't get to see any of the swim but I saw the final 3 hours of the bike. For 1st time live feed on TV, that was a pretty legendary race to show the sport off to the general public.

Good day for the sport indeed!

I also found it was weird that his early pace was not something he could easily figure out. Literally you don't even need to feel your body, you can just visually eyeball that you're moving over the ground way faster at 4:12 vs 3:50....then again, maybe with the amount of time he spends on the treadmill, perhaps he actually can't tell large pace discrepencies simply from rough visual inspection of his surroundings....add perceived exertion and you have the full picture. I personally think if he just did not overcook it to that degree he wins. Watch 1989 videos of Mark and Dave on Alii and then watch them up on the QueenK and they are doing the inverse plan that Lionel was stuck implementing at the end. I think Lionel's prep and fitness were perfect. I few minor things differently and he wins....or simply a crazy windy day and him, Wurf and Kienle have another 5+ minute lead on Lange and Lange does not run 2:40....he runs more like 2:45+ entering T2 with much higher TSS after a windy ride.
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Re: Lionel Sanders haters eat crow here [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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SnappingT wrote:
I’m fortunate that a lot of the pros come through the Woodlands for racing and training and they trust the team to prepare them for their races.. The Woodlands is a great spot to train in a lead up to Kona with the heat and humidity in September. It makes Kona feel like a brisk Spring day. This September we had 4 pros who raced Kona swim with the team on a regular to semi-regular basis. I got a very good look at all of them and how they were swimming.
For most of them, especially in the 48 minute range, unless they want to devote significant more time to swimming there isn’t much room to improve their time. Amberger off the front was in a different hemisphere from everyone else. I think that’s the speed most of them should be training for, but that’s a different argument. What I see with most of them is a big lack of efficiency. In other words, they could be swimming the same pace but come out of the water with their heart rates about 15-20% lower. I’m working with a front pack pro right now and we’ve already gotten his heart rate about 10% lower coming out of the water. We just started this experiment about 2.5 months ago. Any questions, let me know. Tim

As usual, another stellar set of observations. Ya, most pro tri guys/girls do not have the 10s of millions of yards like Potts and Lucy Charles have, so it is no surprise that they are not as efficient.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Lionel Sanders haters eat crow here [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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dont be be fool by what you see to judge what is best for him. Lange would most likely be outrun by Lionel in a 70.3. Would you recommend lange to change is running style?


I think it's ridiculous to think about changing Sanders running style.


I just responded to the question about who has good running economy.
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Re: Lionel Sanders haters eat crow here [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
A few things.....I don't know how many guys have improved to the level of what a LS has done in the time frame he has done it, from AG racing (almost rag tag knucklehead type of approach...and I mean that in a good way) to this level in 7 years. I better not say more cus I don't want to be accused of being in his fan club. I gave him a ton of shit for racing Kona last 2 years with the mental shape he did them in (eta: I should explain that- he showed up in Kona with weird expectations for his fitness/mental levels + he didn't seem to really be in "it"), and to change in 1 year the way he has.....it's pretty good turn around.

2nd, I find one thing strange is that I'm surprised a guy of his caliber of runner didn't "feel" the pace was too hot initially out of T2 for what the first 45 mins. He said he thought his watch was reading 4:12/k pace when he was actually running what 3:50ish/k pace. That's sorta a big difference atleast when you start talking about after 20 or so mins. That's like a 2 min difference in 5k pace, that's almost a zone difference. But that's just super over analyzing.

3rd, to make a guy have to run a 2:40 marathon and do it back to back years, that's both crazy odd luck, and just shows you the pedigree of athlete Lange has become.

Really was outstanding race, didn't get to see any of the swim but I saw the final 3 hours of the bike. For 1st time live feed on TV, that was a pretty legendary race to show the sport off to the general public.

Good day for the sport indeed!


I also found it was weird that his early pace was not something he could easily figure out. Literally you don't even need to feel your body, you can just visually eyeball that you're moving over the ground way faster at 4:12 vs 3:50....then again, maybe with the amount of time he spends on the treadmill, perhaps he actually can't tell large pace discrepencies simply from rough visual inspection of his surroundings....add perceived exertion and you have the full picture. I personally think if he just did not overcook it to that degree he wins. Watch 1989 videos of Mark and Dave on Alii and then watch them up on the QueenK and they are doing the inverse plan that Lionel was stuck implementing at the end. I think Lionel's prep and fitness were perfect. I few minor things differently and he wins....or simply a crazy windy day and him, Wurf and Kienle have another 5+ minute lead on Lange and Lange does not run 2:40....he runs more like 2:45+ entering T2 with much higher TSS after a windy ride.

Of course, Lange's bike will prob keep improving; this year his main improvement was that he took about 9 min off his bike time from 2016. Part of this was due to the light winds but I suspect he actually improved some also. This might've been LS's last, best chance to beat Lange. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Lionel Sanders haters eat crow here [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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I think the question becomes, at what expense does it take away from the bike/run to have to train the swim in order to gain 15-20%, from an athlete who's already front pack.

I’m working with a front pack pro right now and we’ve already gotten his heart rate about 10% lower coming out of the water. We just started this experiment about 2.5 months ago.

---------

The real question is how does that relate to his run fitness/times/efficiency, especially for an athlete who's already a front swim pack athlete (and thus makes the draft train).

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Lionel Sanders haters eat crow here [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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I'll happily eat crow. I was a hater due to his whinging after the 70.3 WC last year, I thought it was unprofessional to complain about draft rules when he knew them coming into the race.

Over the course of 8 hours on Saturday he turned me from a hater to a fanboy. Seeing him pound the pedals on the run in back to T2 and the way he dropped Jan on the climb out of kawaihae was awesome. The best bit was his run though, the guy showed some much will and determination. It seemed like he could blow up at any moment but he just kept trucking on, the commentators seemed to write him off and talk about Hoffman/O Donnell etc. looking good and making a charge but they all faltered and he just kept grinding it out. It was gutting to see him passed but Lange was incredible.

Conditions on Saturday were probably tailor made for Lange, light winds and no cloud cover. If you have a more typical Kona day of winds then the gap at T2 is more in Sanders favour and I can see him winning this thing in years to come.
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Re: Lionel Sanders haters eat crow here [Dan The Man] [ In reply to ]
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I was indifferent to Sanders before Saturday, only having seen him briefly in the Samorin race coverage in the summer. My awareness shifted after he came across well in the pre-race podcast though, and Saturday's performance has aquired him yet another fan.

Theoretically, Andi Raelert is the only person I would like to have seen run him down tbh.

29 years and counting
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Re: Lionel Sanders haters eat crow here [Jorgan] [ In reply to ]
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A fan so i wont eat anything!

But was i the only one seeing Lionel cross the line and almost fall over?
Was it exhaustion or dehydration? Just thinking he was cutting it VEEEERY Close! A bit hotter next year and it might crack him?
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Re: Lionel Sanders haters eat crow here [Dan The Man] [ In reply to ]
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As others have observed, I don't see him changing his run gait. I suspect it's more efficient than it looks, his foot placement, cadence look great and no knee lift or bouncing .

IMO he'll win with different execution. Needs to be a little fresher coming off the bike, no surge after hawi,. Basically be willing to accept possibly even being a little down on someone, whether it's kienle or another Uber biker. Then trust his run and be willing to win late. Could be completely wrong here but I get the impression he wants to always blow races out of the park early.

Usual armchair observation caveats apply :-)
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Re: Lionel Sanders haters eat crow here [JackL] [ In reply to ]
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He needs to get his ass to Hawaii 2-3x over the next year and practice bombing that decent out of Hawi. He could have been right there with Sebi and Wurf without having to do 350w for 20 min. That alone, and he probably wins the race.
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Re: Lionel Sanders haters eat crow here [lassekk] [ In reply to ]
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lassekk wrote:
A fan so i wont eat anything!

But was i the only one seeing Lionel cross the line and almost fall over?
Was it exhaustion or dehydration? Just thinking he was cutting it VEEEERY Close! A bit hotter next year and it might crack him?

I saw this and wondered if he was just playing or if indeed he really did have a light headed moment. He seem to bounce back pretty quick hugging family and Lange.

No need to eat crow here as I have been a LS fan since day one. :-)
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Re: Lionel Sanders haters eat crow here [d00d] [ In reply to ]
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d00d wrote:
Gomez will start the run no more than 5-7 mins down of the leader...and will have a Lange-type run. Maybe not the course record, but he'll win. That's going to be an exciting race, much like this one was.

First I want to see Gomez finish several long distance races with some of the big dogs at a good day.

The difference of 70.3 to 140.6 is huge and not everyone can close that gap.
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Re: Lionel Sanders haters eat crow here [heretic] [ In reply to ]
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heretic wrote:
d00d wrote:
Gomez will start the run no more than 5-7 mins down of the leader...and will have a Lange-type run. Maybe not the course record, but he'll win. That's going to be an exciting race, much like this one was.


First I want to see Gomez finish several long distance races with some of the big dogs at a good day.

The difference of 70.3 to 140.6 is huge and not everyone can close that gap.

Sometimes I wonder if the guys that crown Gomez today have ever done a full IM in their lifetime... Completely different ball game than a HIM. Just because Gomez runs outstanding a 10k and a 21k does not mean that he can come to any IM, let alone HI and smash all those competitors...

The thought of that I think he would even assess as quite disrespectful to the likes of Jan, Kienle, Lange and now Sanders. Not saying he cannot win one day but I can almost put money on that he won't win on his first try.

As for Lionel... What a performance! Some AGs around here are just comical talking about his running economics and all that after the guy smashed the previous bike record, and came at 8:04 with nutrition problems (he didn't take enough)

This guy will be up there next year. Patrick Lange is in his wall for 365 days. Book it.
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Re: Lionel Sanders haters eat crow here [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Sean H wrote:
He needs to get his ass to Hawaii 2-3x over the next year and practice bombing that decent out of Hawi. He could have been right there with Sebi and Wurf without having to do 350w for 20 min. That alone, and he probably wins the race.

This. I would think this is easily the lowest hanging fruit for him to grab! Sure there are other areas to tweak, but loosing that much time on a relatively non-technical descent is an obvious fix! Besides, descending skills are way more fun to work on than swimming! ;)
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Re: Lionel Sanders haters eat crow here [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
A few things.....I don't know how many guys have improved to the level of what a LS has done in the time frame he has done it, from AG racing (almost rag tag knucklehead type of approach...and I mean that in a good way) to this level in 7 years. I better not say more cus I don't want to be accused of being in his fan club. I gave him a ton of shit for racing Kona last 2 years with the mental shape he did them in (eta: I should explain that- he showed up in Kona with weird expectations for his fitness/mental levels + he didn't seem to really be in "it"), and to change in 1 year the way he has.....it's pretty good turn around.

2nd, I find one thing strange is that I'm surprised a guy of his caliber of runner didn't "feel" the pace was too hot initially out of T2 for what the first 45 mins. He said he thought his watch was reading 4:12/k pace when he was actually running what 3:50ish/k pace. That's sorta a big difference atleast when you start talking about after 20 or so mins. That's like a 2 min difference in 5k pace, that's almost a zone difference. But that's just super over analyzing.

3rd, to make a guy have to run a 2:40 marathon and do it back to back years, that's both crazy odd luck, and just shows you the pedigree of athlete Lange has become.

Really was outstanding race, didn't get to see any of the swim but I saw the final 3 hours of the bike. For 1st time live feed on TV, that was a pretty legendary race to show the sport off to the general public.

Good day for the sport indeed!


I also found it was weird that his early pace was not something he could easily figure out. Literally you don't even need to feel your body, you can just visually eyeball that you're moving over the ground way faster at 4:12 vs 3:50....then again, maybe with the amount of time he spends on the treadmill, perhaps he actually can't tell large pace discrepencies simply from rough visual inspection of his surroundings....add perceived exertion and you have the full picture. I personally think if he just did not overcook it to that degree he wins. Watch 1989 videos of Mark and Dave on Alii and then watch them up on the QueenK and they are doing the inverse plan that Lionel was stuck implementing at the end. I think Lionel's prep and fitness were perfect. I few minor things differently and he wins....or simply a crazy windy day and him, Wurf and Kienle have another 5+ minute lead on Lange and Lange does not run 2:40....he runs more like 2:45+ entering T2 with much higher TSS after a windy ride.
That was my first thought. But on top of his treadmill running, maybe the heat affected his judgement also - not only mentally, but seeing the distortion coming off the asphalt.
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Re: Lionel Sanders haters eat crow here [rodchaves31] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Patrick Lange is in his wall for 365 days. Book it.

Why do I get the impression that he's printing off a life sized picture of the moment he was passed?
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Re: Lionel Sanders haters eat crow here [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
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Sanuk wrote:
dont be be fool by what you see to judge what is best for him. Lange would most likely be outrun by Lionel in a 70.3. Would you recommend lange to change is running style?


I think it's ridiculous to think about changing Sanders running style.


I just responded to the question about who has good running economy.

I recommend Bob Babbit's interview with him from Sunday available on Youtube.

Lot's of good info on why he galloped that badly later in the run.

He has some room to improve, whereas Lange seems to have figured most of it out.
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Re: Lionel Sanders haters eat crow here [timbasile] [ In reply to ]
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That and a pic of Lange at the finish line. This guy will do everything he can to go back to battle with Lange.
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Re: Lionel Sanders haters eat crow here [JBell] [ In reply to ]
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JBell wrote:
Sean H wrote:
He needs to get his ass to Hawaii 2-3x over the next year and practice bombing that decent out of Hawi. He could have been right there with Sebi and Wurf without having to do 350w for 20 min. That alone, and he probably wins the race.


This. I would think this is easily the lowest hanging fruit for him to grab! Sure there are other areas to tweak, but loosing that much time on a relatively non-technical descent is an obvious fix! Besides, descending skills are way more fun to work on than swimming! ;)

I'm curious what happened here. If anyone has the video of the helicopter aerial shot of the Hawi turnaround, post it. It seemed that Lionel intentionally let everyone by at the feed zone, and slowed dramatically compared to the others going through the zone. And then the gap was like 100+ yards instantly and surely grew quickly from there. Again, I'd like to see the video again, but it struck me as I watched it that the delta in speeds between him and the other guys as they went through the feed zone left him vulnerable to losing contact, which apparently he did.
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Re: Lionel Sanders haters eat crow here [kny] [ In reply to ]
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Watch from 3:32:35 to 3:33:15. Watch the difference in speed of Cam Wurf initially and Seb Kiehnle soon thereafter compared to Lionel. This is where he lost touch. My guess is this inattention here cost him 50 watts x 15-20 minutes later as he had to bridge back, and who knows the extend that unnecessary surge impacted his run.

Then, rewind to 3:29:50 and listen to 3:30:15 as the commentators directly discuss how a moment's inattention at the turn/feed can lead to exactly what happened.

http://www.ironman.com/triathlon/coverage/detail.aspx?race=worldchampionship&y=2017#axzz4vmkMsngu
Last edited by: kny: Oct 17, 17 10:08
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Re: Lionel Sanders haters eat crow here [kny] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, I agree. It seems the gap happened at the feed zone, before the decent. Then the decent just made it permanent and much tougher to overcome.
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Re: Lionel Sanders haters eat crow here [JBell] [ In reply to ]
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This made me remember that it looked like Wurf attacked at the feed zone. He went right around everyone getting aid and throttled it.
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Re: Lionel Sanders haters eat crow here [kjmcawesome] [ In reply to ]
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Love this part - Lange's "F Ya" fist pump to Lionel after their finish line embrace... respect!

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