Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Navy's USS Shiloh: Crew Calls it a "Floating Prison"
Quote | Reply
My beloved Navy took another hit the other day, when results of an anonymous survey conducted by the sea service made its way to the pages of the Navy Times as well as the NY Post. In a nutshell, the crew aboard the Aegis class guided missile cruiser, which is keeping station off the Korean peninsula and monitoring North Korea, claims there's a serious morale problem aboard the ship.

In a series of three surveys that took place from June of 2015 through August of this year the crew let fly with all sorts of observations and complaints. During that time frame, the cruiser was under the command of a single captain, which is a common enough tour length for a Navy skipper these days. He also wasn't relieved or otherwise had his tour cut short for negative reasons.

“I just pray we never have to shoot down a missile from North Korea, because then our ineffectiveness will really show,” was a typical complaint made by the ship's crew. “It feels like a race to see which will break down first the ship or its crew," said another. The Shiloh is part of the Navy's 7th Fleet, which is the fleet that's suffered two disastrous collisions with merchant vessels along with the loss of many Sailors' lives this year.

As anyone who's served with the Navy knows, there's always an element of "bitchin' and moanin'" by many Navy personnel. There's even a saying that "A bitchin' Sailor is a happy Sailor," so some of what goes on in these surveys is of course a result of that mindset among Navy folks.

But some of the issues raised in the two linked articles seem to go way beyond that sort of "normal bitching" that all of us in the Navy community, as leaders, have heard at many points during our careers. So what's going on with our Navy these days?

‘I now hate my ship’: Surveys reveal disastrous morale on cruiser Shiloh

US Navy crew monitoring North Korea says ship is a ‘floating prison’ | New York Post

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."
Quote Reply
Re: Navy's USS Shiloh: Crew Calls it a "Floating Prison" [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The USS Bread and Water

--------------------------
The secret of a long life is you try not to shorten it.
-Nobody
Quote Reply
Re: Navy's USS Shiloh: Crew Calls it a "Floating Prison" [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Sheriff Joe would have approved.

I can imagine what the comments would have been if we'd had anonymous surveys of what we'd thought of some of the commanders I served under while I was in the USAF. This ship's captain doesn't sound like the he was that bad compared to some of the commanders I had in the USAF.

"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.
Quote Reply
Re: Navy's USS Shiloh: Crew Calls it a "Floating Prison" [mck414] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply

Before I learned the skipper's name, I was wondering if it was "Bligh." Or "Queeg." ;-)

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."
Quote Reply
Re: Navy's USS Shiloh: Crew Calls it a "Floating Prison" [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
everybody a snowflake these days
Quote Reply
Re: Navy's USS Shiloh: Crew Calls it a "Floating Prison" [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'm not particularly comfortable with this kind of "news." CAPT Aycock has had 3 or 4 command tours, and finished all of them without being relieved early, including SHILOH. He's not been charged with anything and he wasn't relieved from his command. Yet his name is being smeared on national media.

There's a reason these command climate surveys are typically kept private. The commander is required to review them with his immediate superior, and with the crew, including taking measures for corrective action if required.

I knew Adam Aycock when we were both Lieutenant Commanders (he's about 2 years ahead of me). We weren't close friends or anything, but I never heard anything about his command through the rumor mill that suggested serious problems.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
Quote Reply
Re: Navy's USS Shiloh: Crew Calls it a "Floating Prison" [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
slowguy wrote:
I'm not particularly comfortable with this kind of "news." CAPT Aycock has had 3 or 4 command tours, and finished all of them without being relieved early, including SHILOH. He's not been charged with anything and he wasn't relieved from his command. Yet his name is being smeared on national media.

There's a reason these command climate surveys are typically kept private. The commander is required to review them with his immediate superior, and with the crew, including taking measures for corrective action if required.

I knew Adam Aycock when we were both Lieutenant Commanders (he's about 2 years ahead of me). We weren't close friends or anything, but I never heard anything about his command through the rumor mill that suggested serious problems.

I think that you, me and Alvin all agree on this one, Skipper. These Sailors seem to be a little on the 'delicate flower' side, what with all the hyperbole in the survey responses.

At any point, ship's crew could have called the Navy or DoD IG's office, or informed their specific Member of Congress or taken any number of other accepted avenues to air their grievances. And in all my time in, I've never heard of a "neutered Chief's mess" that would have let maltreatment of the Sailors in their charge occur in the manner alleged in those command climate surveys. And I don't think any CMC would have stood for it, either.

The article made reference to Holly Graf, CO of USS Cowpens, who was relieved in 2010 for creating the kind of shipboard climate that ALWAYS gets Navy ship's skippers relieved. I'm not seeing the level of "Grafism" in this case, quite honestly.

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."
Quote Reply
Re: Navy's USS Shiloh: Crew Calls it a "Floating Prison" [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
CAPT Aycock has had 3 or 4 command tours, and finished all of them without being relieved early, including SHILOH. He's not been charged with anything and he wasn't relieved from his command.

Not exactly a sterling recommendation. More like damning with faint praise.

A Navy skipper who finished 3 or 4 command tours without being relieved of duty?! Must be a real superstar.

Bread and water as a disciplinary measure? Yeah, that sounds like a leader who's dialed in.












"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Quote Reply
Re: Navy's USS Shiloh: Crew Calls it a "Floating Prison" [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
vitus979 wrote:
CAPT Aycock has had 3 or 4 command tours, and finished all of them without being relieved early, including SHILOH. He's not been charged with anything and he wasn't relieved from his command.

Not exactly a sterling recommendation. More like damning with faint praise.

A Navy skipper who finished 3 or 4 command tours without being relieved of duty?! Must be a real superstar.

Bread and water as a disciplinary measure? Yeah, that sounds like a leader who's dialed in.

Over the course of my career I only saw two Sailors put on bread and water as a punishment, so it was rare even back in my day, the beginning of which was in a Navy where race riots, assaults, battles with shore patrol after a night of drunken revelry at the enlisted club and various high crimes and misdemeanors by Sailors were far more common than they are today.

Also, confinement on bread and water isn't as harsh as it sounds and it's only done under strict medical monitoring conditions and so forth. Plus, you have to be a real discipline problem as a Sailor to end up at captain's mast (CO's non-judicial punishment proceedings) and be put on bread and water, for a fact. It's typically a "last resort, scare 'em straight," tactic.

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."
Quote Reply
Re: Navy's USS Shiloh: Crew Calls it a "Floating Prison" [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
vitus979 wrote:
CAPT Aycock has had 3 or 4 command tours, and finished all of them without being relieved early, including SHILOH. He's not been charged with anything and he wasn't relieved from his command.

Not exactly a sterling recommendation. More like damning with faint praise.

A Navy skipper who finished 3 or 4 command tours without being relieved of duty?! Must be a real superstar.

Bread and water as a disciplinary measure? Yeah, that sounds like a leader who's dialed in.

A relatively low percentage of Naval officers are given the opportunity to command. CAPT Aycock commanded three ships and a shore command. That sets him apart as someone the Navy had a lot of confidence in.

My comment on not having been relieved was simply made to reinforce the point that he's being raked over the coals as some sort of terrible officer, despite having successfully completed all the major wickets the Navy sets out for its officers, and having been given increased trust and responsibility at each turn. If he had ben fired, or charged with some sort of misconduct, then by all means, dig into his past, look at his climate surveys, try to figure out what went wrong. But that's not what happened here. Here we have an officer that, by all other indicators, successfully executed his duties at every stage of his career, and he's getting torn apart by the news and public anyway.

I don't know if Adam was a particularly good CO. But other bad CO's that have been in the news have all been there because the Navy fired them, or charged them with a crime.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
Quote Reply
Re: Navy's USS Shiloh: Crew Calls it a "Floating Prison" [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
slowguy wrote:
vitus979 wrote:
CAPT Aycock has had 3 or 4 command tours, and finished all of them without being relieved early, including SHILOH. He's not been charged with anything and he wasn't relieved from his command.

Not exactly a sterling recommendation. More like damning with faint praise.

A Navy skipper who finished 3 or 4 command tours without being relieved of duty?! Must be a real superstar.

Bread and water as a disciplinary measure? Yeah, that sounds like a leader who's dialed in.


A relatively low percentage of Naval officers are given the opportunity to command. CAPT Aycock commanded three ships and a shore command. That sets him apart as someone the Navy had a lot of confidence in.

My comment on not having been relieved was simply made to reinforce the point that he's being raked over the coals as some sort of terrible officer, despite having successfully completed all the major wickets the Navy sets out for its officers, and having been given increased trust and responsibility at each turn. If he had ben fired, or charged with some sort of misconduct, then by all means, dig into his past, look at his climate surveys, try to figure out what went wrong. But that's not what happened here. Here we have an officer that, by all other indicators, successfully executed his duties at every stage of his career, and he's getting torn apart by the news and public anyway.

I don't know if Adam was a particularly good CO. But other bad CO's that have been in the news have all been there because the Navy fired them, or charged them with a crime.

CAPT Aycock's still in, correct? At NWC on a post-command tour? At minimum, he'd have been "encouraged" to retire at the end of his tour as Shiloh's skipper by everyone above him in his chain of command if he were even close to be being as bad as depicted in those two articles.

I think people also think that Navy Times is 100-percent pro-Navy, which it isn't. It's a private publication and a newspaper above all else. And stories like this sell papers and subscriptions, so folks need to keep that in mind when reading it. I also think it's a measure of the respect DoD and the sea service accord the First Amendment that Navy Times (and Air Force Times and Army Times and Marine Corps Times, etc.) gets the access and sources it does from within the Navy Department.

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."
Quote Reply
Re: Navy's USS Shiloh: Crew Calls it a "Floating Prison" [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
CAPT Aycock's still in, correct? At NWC on a post-command tour?

I believe so, yes. He might be there pending retirement, or just doing a normal tour post-command.

Look, for all I know, he was the worst CO ever. But the fact remains, he held multiple commands, apparently completed them successfully, and each time was selected for promotion and subsequent command opportunities at higher levels. He's now out of command, not been charged with anything, not been fired, not been disciplined, yet he's still being raked over the coals publicly. That's what I'm not particularly comfortable with.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
Quote Reply
Re: Navy's USS Shiloh: Crew Calls it a "Floating Prison" [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
slowguy wrote:
Quote:
CAPT Aycock's still in, correct? At NWC on a post-command tour?


I believe so, yes. He might be there pending retirement, or just doing a normal tour post-command.

Look, for all I know, he was the worst CO ever. But the fact remains, he held multiple commands, apparently completed them successfully, and each time was selected for promotion and subsequent command opportunities at higher levels. He's now out of command, not been charged with anything, not been fired, not been disciplined, yet he's still being raked over the coals publicly. That's what I'm not particularly comfortable with.

Well, if Navy was setting him up for his first star and a flag of his own after service at the Naval War College these articles may well have scuppered that, but only time will tell. I don't really know the current SECNAV all that well (Richard Spencer), but he was a Marine Corps CH-46 pilot until 1981. And SECDEF is James Mattis, a four-star former Marine Corps general. I don't think either of them would be all that influenced by a couple of articles in newspapers. But again, only time will tell, I suppose.

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."
Quote Reply
Re: Navy's USS Shiloh: Crew Calls it a "Floating Prison" [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
4 commands is most impressive, I agree with Slowguy, the Navy saw something in Capt Aycock to keep giving him commands.

The Navy Times I suspect is the same as the rag Marine Corps Times, not worth lining a bird cage with. I dropped my subscription to them years ago.

I'd like to know how many of those sailors given bread and water were trying to get out and purposely causing trouble versus the Capt saw something redeemable in them and used B&W as a last resort instead of separation.

--------------------------
The secret of a long life is you try not to shorten it.
-Nobody
Quote Reply
Re: Navy's USS Shiloh: Crew Calls it a "Floating Prison" [mck414] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In other naughty nautical news it seems the HMS Vigilant's CO was just relieved for inappropriate relationship with his trident boat's weapons officer. Quite the love boat the Brits got going on there as the XO also went the way of the buffalo too.

http://metro.co.uk/...sex-scandal-7001016/

Steve
Quote Reply
Re: Navy's USS Shiloh: Crew Calls it a "Floating Prison" [mck414] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
mck414 wrote:
4 commands is most impressive, I agree with Slowguy, the Navy saw something in Capt Aycock to keep giving him commands.

The Navy Times I suspect is the same as the rag Marine Corps Times, not worth lining a bird cage with. I dropped my subscription to them years ago.

I'd like to know how many of those sailors given bread and water were trying to get out and purposely causing trouble versus the Capt saw something redeemable in them and used B&W as a last resort instead of separation.

Back when I was an HM1 (E-6), I had a Master Chief HM (E-9) who was a mentor to me (he's the reason I applied for a commissioning program, and was selected on my first try) and he used to talk to me about how Sailors get themselves tossed in the brig, including getting put on bread and water. He said. "You gotta be a real sh*thead for a CO to put you on bread and water." By that, he meant you really had to push some of the skipper's buttons to be "awarded" punishment that included a stay on bread and water.

I don't know of any Navy (or Marine Corps, for that matter) CO who'd just randomly throw a Sailor in clink and put him on bread and water, nor did I know of a single one in my career. If anything, most of the ones I was associated with were hesitant to really whack a Sailor, mostly because they all understood just how serious a non-judicial punishment was. A Sailor's career could hang in the balance, depending on what went on in there.

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."
Quote Reply
Re: Navy's USS Shiloh: Crew Calls it a "Floating Prison" [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
“I just pray we never have to shoot down a missile from North Korea,” a distraught sailor lamented, “because then our ineffectiveness will really show.”

Can't show up on time for their watch, late coming back from leave/liberty, lying about "mom lives in a dangerous place", but the skipper is being mean! He put guys in the brig on bread and water seven times during his 14 months in command. That's once every other month! Oh the humanity!

Snowflakes. If they can't shoot down a missile from North Korea, it's not because the skipper expected them to be on time and to follow the regs.

BTW, since when did the Navy start having the enlisted folks critique their commanders? Some of the best commanders I served under while in the USAF were pretty hard-assed. Then there were the commanders who ran fighter squadrons like a flying club and who were always at the Club on Friday night drinking whiskey and playing crud. Both types could be good or bad, but I know what a survey of their respective troops would have said.

"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.
Quote Reply
Re: Navy's USS Shiloh: Crew Calls it a "Floating Prison" [Alvin Tostig] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The surveys have been around for as long as I can remember, and their a DoD system. As far as I know, Air Force uses them as well as Army and USMC.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
Quote Reply
Re: Navy's USS Shiloh: Crew Calls it a "Floating Prison" [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
slowguy wrote:
The surveys have been around for as long as I can remember, and their a DoD system. As far as I know, Air Force uses them as well as Army and USMC.

I remember the first time we all got them. Everyone looked at them as a chance to get back at all the meanie leaders.

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."
Quote Reply
Re: Navy's USS Shiloh: Crew Calls it a "Floating Prison" [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
big kahuna wrote:
slowguy wrote:
The surveys have been around for as long as I can remember, and their a DoD system. As far as I know, Air Force uses them as well as Army and USMC.

I remember the first time we all got them. Everyone looked at them as a chance to get back at all the meanie leaders.

Marine Corps has or did have them during my time. Most slackers took them as a bitch sheet. I'm there were some legitimate grievences, but most used them for petty complaints.

--------------------------
The secret of a long life is you try not to shorten it.
-Nobody
Quote Reply