oh geez would you stop being such an idiot on here

why don't you step up produce a race and prove it's safe. You're tired of excuses; go prove it, FFS if you think it can be done

To answer your accident question at Oside a few years ago there were about 6 guys sitting on my wheel. One dude tried to pass and slot in when a gap formed, hit a cone and went down. IIRC he took someone else down.

At clearwater 70.3 WC's there were multiple bike crashes in the packs..every single year they had it there. Go search the archives and open your eyes a bit.

EDIT: multiple crashes there, at IMAZ a few years ago didn't force them to alter the rules. A few deaths in the swim though....and we get some rule changes, which were also designed to help reduce drafting

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Don't forget disc brakes! I'd suggest you don't crash :)

Maybe they should throw in some points lines for a green jersey too, while they're at it...

In response, I would argue that a lot of the people who would sign up for a non-competitive division already are on road bikes, and a slew of others would give up their tribikes for a road bike if they had this opportunity. I would also argue that the many of the people who would choose a non-competitive division, and currently ride a tri-bike, don't use their aerobars to begin with. I'll take you to the local sprint tris in my town and show you folks who don't/can't/won't ride in their aerobars for even a 10 mile bike leg.

Your repeated comments on this topic are idiotic. You don’t have a clue and are trying to equate ‘data’ from a race of 200 to a race of 2000. You’re don’t understand the difference between what happens in a current IM and what would happen in a draft legal IM. The drafting that happens in a current IM is people trying to fudge the rules, for the most part. They aren’t all riding a foot apart and engaging in active pacelines. They are mostly trying to hang around others and edge into the draft zone. Compare that to a draft legal event with 100+ riders forming a pack on their tri bikes and trying to hammer a 112mile effort together. People sit up, swerve around to get a bottle out, miss a pothole, etc etc and you have crashes. It is inevitable. Slightly safer if they ban tri bikes, but that takes away a huge aspect of the sport, so maybe not a win win.

I've witnessed that many times myself HuffNPuff. You are probably right about the road bikes. It would diversify the bike racks at WTC events if they started a non-competitive draft legal division.

I would also argue that the many of the people who would choose a non-competitive division, and currently ride a tri-bike, don't use their aerobars to begin with.


True.

I stood on the side of the road at IMAZ a number of years ago, at about the 60 - 70 mile point. After a certain point in the field, a vast majority of people, riding fancy aero tri bikes, were sitting bold up-right on the bull-horns, and I gathered that they had been riding this way for an extended period of time. It was at that point that, I thought - just ride a road bike. Yes, you would be a bit "faster" on the fully aero tri bike - but back at this point in the race . . does it really matter?

In fact just prior to watching IMAZ that year, I spent a few days test riding the then, new Cervelo S5, and made the suggestion that, many of these riders that I saw would have been better of well fitted on a bike like the S5 than a tri bike - My blog post about that here - http://stevefleck.blogspot.com/...on-on-road-bike.html

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Dave,

The problem and challenge in Kona is you have a very competitive race field, and little geography/topography to really separate the field.

I'm in Kona and I have just ridden out and back to Waikoloa one day - and there is really nothing that challenges riders, unless it's super windy - lots of long gradual downhills and false flats.

Today I rode straight up Palani - going beyond the Queen-K and you just keep going up, and up and up. to the Upper Levels Hwy. It's about a 3000 ft climb!

If they really wanted to tackle the drafting here at the Kona race - just send them right out of transition at the Pier - and straight up that climb. That will create some serious separation right from the get-go with a 3000 ft climb right out of T1! Keep the bike course up on the Upper Levels Hwy, and then drop down to the Queen K via the Waikoloa Road. Then carry on as normal. You most likely would have to turn before Hawi, and then return via the normal route on the Queen-K.

I guarantee you that this bike course ( suggested above), would have very little drafting! :)

Chance of it happening - probably zero!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

But I assume you agree there is a decent amount of drafting going on in Hawaii? If so, like at clearwater, etc events, I sure have never heard that this drafting, with TT bikes, has had any accidents? Have you?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Dave,

There are two kinds of drafting going on in Hawaii - active, and passive. I've worked as a draft Marshall here, you can see the active kind, by the people that are really following wheels - guy ahead goes left, the guy behind, right in the draft zone, goes left . . etc . .

The passive kind, are those situations where there really is no where to go on the road - too many riders, in too little time and not enough space on the road. An easy solution is to just brake and drop back - but this goes against the competitive aspect of many top AG competitors and they, have this philosophical bent that this is some form of ITT - I have to stay on the gas, the whole time.

I'm a bit confused by what you are advocating - allowing drafting, while still using TT/Tri bikes

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

from my one mans perspective on '17 Kona, re: drafting...

I was very pleasantly surprised. I swam a mid 63 (in an old school speedo - no floaties, please!). I was fully expecting constant wheel sucking; none observed. I was in a good place to see drafting because my bike stank pretty bad. Sure, there were a few cases where people might have been a few meters too close for a few seconds, but with those cross winds (in many places) they were getting zero benefit. I did see at about mile 40 a group of perhaps a dozen containing a few age group women who were all too close for too long, but, it appeared that they were on their way to spreading out (albeit a bit slower then "legal"). I mostly rode really far off to the right (sometimes 2 meters to the right of the white line). Which made the few passes I made kind of comical because I had to go so far to the left, and then back to the right. Basically there was no way (or need) to pass me on the right.

I also expected to see the penalty tents over flowing: I did see a few people, but not that many. Marshals? More than I've ever seen. I'm pretty sure I saw someone get a "blue card" in front of me, if so, it was a marginal situation - from my angle, anyway.

So, overall I was quite impressed. As JR said at the Thursday meeting (and I was cynical of). Drafting is a choice. And, most seemed to choose well. Only my opinion, but I'd give an "A" grade, at worst an "A-".

Enjoy the journey (I did)

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I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________

I can see WTC making a play for the two day championship here in Kona after this current Queen K construction is complete between the harbor access road and the airport. The race could be held on the makai side of this section with the mauka side open to traffic. Traffic could be one way north to Kaimanini with temporary traffic control for the short section to the airport access. Then southbound traffic could routed up to the belt Hwy at Kaimanini. This is the current airport link on race day, but the new QK link would help a lot. The one side of the QK could also use traffic control for the entire segment to the airport, but that would take a lot more temporary control.

Outside of dealing with traffic, the bulk of the event is the mobilization, setup and breakdown at the pier and around town. Splitting men's and women's races plus a shift to the AG start used at the recent Chatt 70.3 WC would address a number of the congestion and drafting complaints. As seen at Chatt, it would also change the dynamics of the pointy end of the women's race where there is potential to overlap the men's field.

But you're spot on in that the challenge would be selling it to the community and getting it permitted. Going forward with either format, there should be more focus on traffic control and safety at the race course crossings - both bikes crossing runners at the natural energy lab and vehicles crossing bikes at several QK intersections.

As much as I'd like to see that, the road to Hawi contains many residential areas plus Puako, Waikoloa and handful of other resorts on the makai side of Queen K. Also Kawaihae is an active harbor. It would require a change of bike course or two out and backs turning around just before Hapuna. I doubt that would thrill a lot of people, but it could work...

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
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I can't believe you guys fell for this again.