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Re: The Coming Software Apocalypse [racin_rusty] [ In reply to ]
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racin_rusty wrote:
IME, most programmers I've dealt with are great at writing code but terrible at understanding real world use. Eg. I want a message added to our inventory software that advises the user that they're buying inventory from a different supplier than normal. Response from the software developer? You, the client should be using the automated re-order process rather than manually inputting the purchase order. WTF? The software is supposed to fit the customer needs not the other way around.

Not necessarily true. Companies standardize process to fit within the capabilities of the software they have chosen or written. Think a large company, Why program 30 different way to take an order? Instead update the business process and customize if needed for that one method.
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Re: The Coming Software Apocalypse [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
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big kahuna wrote:
trail wrote:
I'm not terribly impressed by the article. It makes it sound like these are new ideas, but they've been in Computer Science for decades. The reason most of the ideas haven't spread very widely is they make software development extraordinarily expensive. Proving software correctness - no matter how you approach it - is expensive.

So you get the level of correctness that you pay for.

Maybe some brilliant computer scientist will come up with a new methodology that will be some sort of breakthrough that changes everything. I didn't see the breakthrough in that article. Just a re-hashing of what Computer Science has known for a long time.

I also don't see an "apocalypse." That's just a click-bait subject line (which you stole).[/quote

Good points. But I notice all the CS types here are pretty defensive about the issues touched upon in the article, which is in The Atlantic, so it's hardly clickbait, regardless of where the post hed came from. So let's see:

1. We have AI that may or may not kill us or, at minimum, enslave us.

2. Increasingly complex software and software/coding issues that may or may not turn into an apocalypse.

Have I got all that right? ;-)

Well now that you have deleted a "]" and broken the quoting code, the apocalypse can begin.
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Re: The Coming Software Apocalypse [MikeH in MD] [ In reply to ]
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MikeH in MD wrote:
big kahuna wrote:
Francois wrote:
If you eat at Applebee's you get premium mediocre software. And that's it. Deal with it.



Hahahahahahaha! I knew you'd catch that one, mon ami! :-)

I dunno - I'm not sure Applebee's even gets to that level.

Come on dude, it was just a great opportunity to squeeze in a premium mediocre.
I guess it was a premium mediocre POTD? ;-)
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Re: The Coming Software Apocalypse [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
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I've been (and still am, on occasion) a journalist. "Yellow journalism"? In The Atlantic? To paraphrase the immortal Inigo Montoya (and you should be prepared to die ;-); You keep using that term. I do not think it means what you think it means. ;-)

"The Coming Software Apocalypse". Maybe I'm being too harsh?
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Re: The Coming Software Apocalypse [patf] [ In reply to ]
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patf wrote:
racin_rusty wrote:
IME, most programmers I've dealt with are great at writing code but terrible at understanding real world use. Eg. I want a message added to our inventory software that advises the user that they're buying inventory from a different supplier than normal. Response from the software developer? You, the client should be using the automated re-order process rather than manually inputting the purchase order. WTF? The software is supposed to fit the customer needs not the other way around.


Not necessarily true. Companies standardize process to fit within the capabilities of the software they have chosen or written. Think a large company, Why program 30 different way to take an order? Instead update the business process and customize if needed for that one method.

I'm guessing you're a programmer.
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Re: The Coming Software Apocalypse [SH] [ In reply to ]
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SH wrote:
Quote:
I've been (and still am, on occasion) a journalist. "Yellow journalism"? In The Atlantic? To paraphrase the immortal Inigo Montoya (and you should be prepared to die ;-); You keep using that term. I do not think it means what you think it means. ;-)


"The Coming Software Apocalypse". Maybe I'm being too harsh?

As Mr. Trail pointed out, I lifted that hed from another website. But the article makes clear that -- in the writer's opinion (something that layers of fact checkers and editors at The Atlantic, a periodical of some note, approved) -- there could be big trouble looming as the billions and probably trillions of changes to software code in a myriad of important systems in existence today may be starting to overwhelm coders's ability to keep up. But there's hope that such a circumstance won't come to pass, certainly -- and the article makes that clear as well.

I think it's clear in this thread, as Mr. Rusty, among others, have pointed out, that the programmers here and participating in this colloquy are maybe being a bit defensive. Why is that, do you suppose?

Are us tech noodges and kludgy amateurs suddenly going to rise up and line those coders up against the wall, in the style of The Matrix, and do them in? I think not. At least, not until AI takes over and gets rid of all the competition. LOL!

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."
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Re: The Coming Software Apocalypse [fierceSun] [ In reply to ]
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fierceSun wrote:
big kahuna wrote:
trail wrote:
I'm not terribly impressed by the article. It makes it sound like these are new ideas, but they've been in Computer Science for decades. The reason most of the ideas haven't spread very widely is they make software development extraordinarily expensive. Proving software correctness - no matter how you approach it - is expensive.

So you get the level of correctness that you pay for.

Maybe some brilliant computer scientist will come up with a new methodology that will be some sort of breakthrough that changes everything. I didn't see the breakthrough in that article. Just a re-hashing of what Computer Science has known for a long time.

I also don't see an "apocalypse." That's just a click-bait subject line (which you stole).[/quote

Good points. But I notice all the CS types here are pretty defensive about the issues touched upon in the article, which is in The Atlantic, so it's hardly clickbait, regardless of where the post hed came from. So let's see:

1. We have AI that may or may not kill us or, at minimum, enslave us.

2. Increasingly complex software and software/coding issues that may or may not turn into an apocalypse.

Have I got all that right? ;-)


Well now that you have deleted a "]" and broken the quoting code, the apocalypse can begin.

Hahahahahahahahahaha! Good one! :-)

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."
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Re: The Coming Software Apocalypse [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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j p o wrote:
Over 25 years of customers wanting new things, the code gets complicated. Then someone wants a brand new system because it is complicated and we go spend $500,000,000 to get a system that does less than the original.

And don't get me started on the motherfuckers who dreamt up Agile and open seating.
It's like you're reading my MIND.

This is my company in a nutshell, with the bonus being a transition to Agile as we transition to a new cloud-based system. Will be a long, long transition but I'm at least comfortable with the fact that it's gonna be such a shit-show transition over so many years that my job is safe for a long, long time.
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Re: The Coming Software Apocalypse [patf] [ In reply to ]
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IME, most programmers I've dealt with are great at writing code but terrible at understanding real world use. Eg. I want a message added to our inventory software that advises the user that they're buying inventory from a different supplier than normal. Response from the software developer? You, the client should be using the automated re-order process rather than manually inputting the purchase order. WTF? The software is supposed to fit the customer needs not the other way around.
Not necessarily true. Companies standardize process to fit within the capabilities of the software they have chosen or written. Think a large company, Why program 30 different way to take an order? Instead update the business process and customize if needed for that one method.

+1

Too many customers (internal or external) don't really know what they need, or "it's just always been done this way", or your requirements are just make it do what the old system do.

Most companies are not that unique, at least in the way that most business functions are done (inventory, accounting, hr, etc).
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Re: The Coming Software Apocalypse [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
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big kahuna wrote:
len wrote:
Is this the new Y2K? Just kidding. I will say that we have be unable to see patients many times in the last few years in our medical office because of software issues. Never had that happen with paper. We used to even be able to see patients during power outages now we cannot access their records then either.


Blame PPACA for part of the issue with EMRs and the systems that create and then curate them. At one point towards the tail-end of my Navy career I used to be a healthcare administrator (and was director for administration at a large naval dental center) and one of my (now-unused) graduate degrees is in that worthy endeavor (hah! ;-) . I'm not all that sure many of those systems are actually ready for prime time and, as you've pointed out, they're vulnerable to system outages, downtime, server and router issues, coding problems, hacking and so forth.

I read a study a couple of years ago that discussed the many, many networks and computer systems -- some dating back to the 1980s -- that the feds are trying to get to interoperate or mesh with each other, when it comes to EMRs as well as medical reimbursements and health insurance, that were never designed for such interoperability. "Mishmash," was one term used. "Complete garbage" was another. ;-)

How else would you propose to be able to share charting records, prescriptions, X-rays, etc, among a network of providers ~ quite often in locations removed from one another ~ in nearly real-time? EMRs have their warts & bugs just like any other technology, but are you seriously pining for the days when you went to see another doctor and had to courier a folder stuffed full of papers between offices? Where the fuck would you even physically store that many radiology slides these days if it weren't electronic (and how many more hands would it require to catalog & retrieve them shelf by shelf)? ~ that's akin to throwing your iPod out the window and bringing back the furniture rack of albums/VHS tapes taking up half your living room, times a factor of about 18947623894.

Suppose you walked into a bank to open a new account and they still filed all your info in a cabinet full of manila folders and maintained your ledger in a series of index cards... Would you go right ahead and hand them your money, or would you turn back around and go look for a financial institution that appears to have upgraded its record-keeping systems sometime since Windows was invented?
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Re: The Coming Software Apocalypse [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
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we are just replacing one kind of human error with a different kind of human error. In theory the overall extent of human error should be decreasing, but that doesn't necessarily reconcile with the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Just wait for the singularity, once the machines take over we won't need to worry about human error anymore.
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Re: The Coming Software Apocalypse [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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One of the largest companies in the world and one of the top 5 medical equipment companies still buys ms dos licenses. The German railway system still uses windows 1.1.
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Re: The Coming Software Apocalypse [Uncle Arqyle] [ In reply to ]
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Uncle Arqyle wrote:
One of the largest companies in the world and one of the top 5 medical equipment companies still buys ms dos licenses. The German railway system still uses windows 1.1.


Doesn't really matter what you use....

All happened to me recently::

Sorry, you can't buy food at our national chain store even if you wanted to pay cash, our computer system is down and we can't even open the registers (came back 30 min. later and it still was "down", didn't get my favorite Chilly-Fries and had to buy some crappy fries at a competitor)..

Sorry, you can't get any gas right now, we just had a power outage and the system needs to boot back up (15 min later with repeated system crashes visible at the pump terminals, I had to drive on reserve to a gas station several miles away).

If Kim gets to trigger an EMP close to or over the West-Coast (without his nuke ever hitting the ground) we are all FUCKED....
Last edited by: windschatten: Sep 29, 17 21:34
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Re: The Coming Software Apocalypse [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
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big kahuna wrote:
SH wrote:
Quote:
I've been (and still am, on occasion) a journalist. "Yellow journalism"? In The Atlantic? To paraphrase the immortal Inigo Montoya (and you should be prepared to die ;-); You keep using that term. I do not think it means what you think it means. ;-)


"The Coming Software Apocalypse". Maybe I'm being too harsh?


As Mr. Trail pointed out, I lifted that hed from another website. But the article makes clear that -- in the writer's opinion (something that layers of fact checkers and editors at The Atlantic, a periodical of some note, approved) -- there could be big trouble looming as the billions and probably trillions of changes to software code in a myriad of important systems in existence today may be starting to overwhelm coders's ability to keep up. But there's hope that such a circumstance won't come to pass, certainly -- and the article makes that clear as well.

I think it's clear in this thread, as Mr. Rusty, among others, have pointed out, that the programmers here and participating in this colloquy are maybe being a bit defensive. Why is that, do you suppose?

Are us tech noodges and kludgy amateurs suddenly going to rise up and line those coders up against the wall, in the style of The Matrix, and do them in? I think not. At least, not until AI takes over and gets rid of all the competition. LOL!


Could it be that non-IT people are blaming IT for things being complicated when it is their own fault?

IT likes elegant code, clean, short, efficient. Then 90% of the way through a project business changes their mind and wants some additions. IT doesn't come in with the business requirements. And they have to change directions.

It is easy to blame technology but every time you say, 'hey, wouldn't it be cool to just send a message this way' IT has to jump.

Son, we live in a world that has technological needs, and those technological needs have to be coded by men and women with brains. Who's gonna do it? You? You, BK? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Duffy and you curse the coders. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know; that Fortran's death, while tragic, probably saved money. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saved time and money. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that keyboard. You need me on that keyboard. We use words like platform, code, cloud. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent creating something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very technology that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you sit at a keyboard and start typing. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
Last edited by: j p o: Sep 30, 17 12:18
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Re: The Coming Software Apocalypse [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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j p o wrote:
big kahuna wrote:
SH wrote:
Quote:
I've been (and still am, on occasion) a journalist. "Yellow journalism"? In The Atlantic? To paraphrase the immortal Inigo Montoya (and you should be prepared to die ;-); You keep using that term. I do not think it means what you think it means. ;-)


"The Coming Software Apocalypse". Maybe I'm being too harsh?


As Mr. Trail pointed out, I lifted that hed from another website. But the article makes clear that -- in the writer's opinion (something that layers of fact checkers and editors at The Atlantic, a periodical of some note, approved) -- there could be big trouble looming as the billions and probably trillions of changes to software code in a myriad of important systems in existence today may be starting to overwhelm coders's ability to keep up. But there's hope that such a circumstance won't come to pass, certainly -- and the article makes that clear as well.

I think it's clear in this thread, as Mr. Rusty, among others, have pointed out, that the programmers here and participating in this colloquy are maybe being a bit defensive. Why is that, do you suppose?

Are us tech noodges and kludgy amateurs suddenly going to rise up and line those coders up against the wall, in the style of The Matrix, and do them in? I think not. At least, not until AI takes over and gets rid of all the competition. LOL!


Could it be that non-IT people are blaming IT for things being complicated when it is their own fault?

IT likes elegant code, clean, short, efficient. Then 90% of the way through a project business changes their mind and wants some additions. IT doesn't come in with the business requirements. And they have to change directions.

It is easy to blame technology but every time you say, 'hey, wouldn't it be cool to just send a message this way' IT has to jump.

Son, we live in a world that has technological needs, and those technological needs have to be coded by men and women with brains. Who's gonna do it? You? You, BK? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Duffy and you curse the coders. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know; that Fortran's death, while tragic, probably saved money. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saved time and money. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that keyboard. You need me on that keyboard. We use words like platform, code, cloud. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent creating something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very technology that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you sit at a keyboard and start typing. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!

Is this yours? If so, well done sir, well done!

_____
TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.
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Re: The Coming Software Apocalypse [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, football is a little boring today and I don't feel like doing any real work.

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
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Re: The Coming Software Apocalypse [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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j p o wrote:

Son, we live in a world that has technological needs, and those technological needs have to be coded by men and women with brains. Who's gonna do it? You? You, BK? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Duffy and you curse the coders. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know; that Fortran's death, while tragic, probably saved money. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saved time and money. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that keyboard. You need me on that keyboard. We use words like platform, code, cloud. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent creating something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very technology that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you sit at a keyboard and start typing. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!


Need to keep this for the next time they complain about the DBAs. Well done!
Last edited by: patf: Sep 30, 17 18:05
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Re: The Coming Software Apocalypse [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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<insert>slow clap meme</insert>
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Re: The Coming Software Apocalypse [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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j p o wrote:
Son, we live in a world that has technological needs, and those technological needs have to be coded by men and women with brains. Who's gonna do it? You? You, BK? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Duffy and you curse the coders. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know; that Fortran's death, while tragic, probably saved money. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saved time and money. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that keyboard. You need me on that keyboard. We use words like platform, code, cloud. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent creating something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very technology that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you sit at a keyboard and start typing. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!

A few good men .... aah coders :). Made me chuckle but so true.


len = len + 20; /* add some buffer */
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Re: The Coming Software Apocalypse [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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j p o wrote:
Son, we live in a world that has technological needs, and those technological needs have to be coded by men and women with brains. Who's gonna do it? You? You, BK? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Duffy and you curse the coders. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know; that Fortran's death, while tragic, probably saved money. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saved time and money. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that keyboard. You need me on that keyboard. We use words like platform, code, cloud. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent creating something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very technology that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you sit at a keyboard and start typing. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!


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Re: The Coming Software Apocalypse [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Son, we live in a world that has technological needs, and those technological needs have to be coded by men and women with brains. Who's gonna do it? You? You, BK? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Duffy and you curse the coders. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know; that Fortran's death, while tragic, probably saved money. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saved time and money. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that keyboard. You need me on that keyboard. We use words like platform, code, cloud. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent creating something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very technology that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you sit at a keyboard and start typing. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!

Not sure how I missed this earlier, but bravo, sir, bravo!
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Re: The Coming Software Apocalypse [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
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Don't blame the guys writing the code blame the business for saying yeah I know you said it will take X amount of time but do it in Y. That is most often the reason for low quality. Someone got rich when the contract was signed though!

----
Don't hold back
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Re: The Coming Software Apocalypse [iO4] [ In reply to ]
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iO4 wrote:
Don't blame the guys writing the code blame the business for saying yeah I know you said it will take X amount of time but do it in Y. That is most often the reason for low quality. Someone got rich when the contract was signed though!

Schedule, quality, features. Pick two.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: The Coming Software Apocalypse [efernand] [ In reply to ]
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efernand wrote:
Quote:
Son, we live in a world that has technological needs, and those technological needs have to be coded by men and women with brains. Who's gonna do it? You? You, BK? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Duffy and you curse the coders. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know; that Fortran's death, while tragic, probably saved money. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saved time and money. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that keyboard. You need me on that keyboard. We use words like platform, code, cloud. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent creating something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very technology that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you sit at a keyboard and start typing. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!


Not sure how I missed this earlier, but bravo, sir, bravo!

Funny. I just watched the end of "A Few Good Men" this evening and you do a great Nicholson imitation.

BTW: As a software developer for a complex embedded system that many, many people rely on (albeit indirectly) almost daily, I agree with you and BK's original thesis.
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