I'm not trying to be realistic. I'm just trying to show you that races can choose to set up their point systems however they want and it isn't always "most stage wins" gets the green jersey.

Of the last 19 grand tours, only 4 times has the rider with the most stage wins won the green jersey. 6 times though, the green jersey has been won by someone who didn't win a stage at all (most often at the Vuelta).

Maybe if you can start to understand that the green jersey isn't all about winning sprint stages, and is actually often far from that, you might be okay with it.

and I wrote that twice (second was an edit), that in fact they can setup the course however the want.

Now since you have all the data, how man "GC" guys have won the points jersey vs what we define as a "sprinter"? Which was my original point.....almost all races are setup to provide races with a race for each discipline.

ETA: in fact I've never seen a 3 week stage race actually won by a rider we define as a GC guy. Maybe it's a Vuelta thing because this wouldn't happen in Tour or Giro. Which was what I was thinking the races themselves settle things out to give each specific discipline it's own limelight.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Sagan has never been the best sprinter at the Tour and that doesn't stop him from fighting for the points jersey by placing high consistently. The Vuelta was set-up in a way that the GC guys had to be fighting for the finish more than usual. Trentin had a great Vuelta but the points jersey was never the teams ambition going into the race otherwise Trentin wouldn't have let his teammate get a gap and win on one of those early stages.

If you are up on the points on the last day of the race and you don't fight for it, that's a crazy missed opportunity. Froome could have always crashed fighting for that intermediate sprint and then what insanity would have ensued? Does Bahrain and Sunweb hit the front? IMO, it's fair game if you crash due to aggressiveness. Quick Step surely wouldn't have had any mercy for him at that point.

is ST really saying Sagan is not within likely top 3-4 sprinters in the peloton?

using Sagan as green is exactly my point. Sagan is no where near a GC guy he's perfectly setup to race for points. Jason is caught up on my "stage wins" comments and not the overall point I was making. Most races create system that allows each category to showcase itself. It seems like only the Vuelta apparently is more mountainous overall and thus sprinters took a back seat.

ETA: Sagan wins the green for 2 reasons- he can race for top stage points on stages where the pure sprinters throw up the white flag on. 2nd on the pure sprint stages he's the "best of the rest" so his 4th or 5th place consistently outgains the pure sprinters who get none when he can go for top places where they are minutes back by the finish. So yes Sagan is not the best pure sprinter but he has the ability to sprint and finish high up far more often then pure sprinters.
ETA #2- also winning points stage you have to make it to end of race to actually win it. That can be hard to do at times as it's happened in past green jersey guy just final calls no mas half way through final week of mountains. Did it happen this past year in Tour?? Can't remember as so many crashes/dq really changed Tour points race.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I might put him in the 10-15 range. . . but top five, not a chance.

but a sprinter yes? That's what overwhelming majority of points race is won by in GT's. And most stage winners belong to sprinters with how courses are setup and how GC is raced these days where many times a break "wins" the stage but the race is all time gaps within GC guys irregardless of where they finish within stage. Again maybe it's just a Vuelta thing where GC guy wins points too.

eta: Sagan is well then good enough to hold his own in the sprints, so whether 4th best in world, 11th best, he's there when he needs to be. He is close enough when he can't pure out sprint the pure sprinters, and he's there on the hilly finishes to actually outspent the field. So it's kinda going in circles talking about how good or bad Sagan is at actually sprinting.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Except that is not true.

If the race organizers wanted green to go to the best sprinter then they wouldn't give out any points except for the finish of stages where a group sprint is possible. Why bother with giving out points for summit finishes or intermediate checks?

Your example of Sagan is proving my exact point...that's it's a points race, not a sprinter's race. Sagan won green at the TdF in 2014 and 2015 without ever winning a stage...and it wasn't even close. How can he be the best sprinter of those tours and never win as single stage? Because he went out in the break on mountain stages and took advantage of the 20 points at the intermediate check and also contended some of the medium mountain stages where the fastest sprinters were off the back.

It's not to say that Sagan isn't a good sprinter, but he proved you can win green at the TdF without beating the being the best sprinter.

Who said that the points race was dominated by GC riders? Stop trying to classify the points race as a "sprinters" race or trying to imply that others are saying it's a "GC" race. It's a POINTS race. Valverde, Rodriguez, Mollema, Felline, Scarponi, Evans, GvA, etc have all won the points race at grand tours recently. And lets try not to live in a bubble that grand tours are the only races that exist. There are plenty of other smaller races where a top sprinter doesn't win the points jersey...and some where they do.

Not necessarily replying just to you, but just to reiterate the fact that stage wins are a prize in themselves and the points jersey is to reward consistency not stage wins or sprinting. Cavendish is the best sprinter of his generation, and second on the all time list of TdF stage winners with 30 in the last decade. Yet he's only won the green jersey once, and has had years when he's won as many as 5 (2010) or 6 (2009) stages without winning the green jersey. On the flip side, Sagan won the green jersey in 2015 without a single stage win. Giacomo Nizzolo also has 2 points jerseys from the Giro without ever having won a GT stage.

Tour de France probably has the highest correlation between sprinting and the points jersey, but as mentioned above that's largely down to routes with quite a few sprint stages. And in these days of everybody specialising, then riders need to decide fairly early on whether to prioritise stage wins or points. Getting in early breaks to hoover up points, and sprinting for intermediate points both burn matches which is going to make you less likely to win in a bunch sprint finish at the end.

Yes but in regards to Cav, he only lost those jerseys because he DNF'd yes? Now maybe he would have gotten time cut on those stages, but I don't think he's ever been a green jersey guy chaser at expense of stage wins. To him stage wins is the creme de la creme. How many DNFs does he have? A lot yes? eta: it looks like only 2016 was a DNF to focus on Olympics from what I can research and other years he was very close with some late stage wins.

Whereas a guy like Sagan who isn't the "best" raw sprinter but imo is the best all around sprinter and that let's him win points others won't chase.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

And lets try not to live in a bubble that grand tours are the only races that exist. There are plenty of other smaller races where a top sprinter doesn't win the points jersey...and some where they do.

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Except we are discussing tactics from a 3 week bike race. So what happens in small races really isn't all that relevant at the actual discussion points that we are having is it? We are talking points races in a race format that covers all types of disciplines and thus creates very different results etc. So for this particular discussion atleast my points deal with 3 week bike races.

Want to talk other races and their tactics, go for it.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Nope, Cavendish completed both the 2009 and 2010 Tours, he's got 6 TdF finishes in total. After his early years when he lacked endurance he generally only DNFs if he's crashed (he's crashed out of the Tour at least twice) or if he is prepping for something else. E.g. in 2016 he DNFed the Tour to focus on the Olympics.

And yes, totally agree that for him it's all about the stage wins, which is exactly my point that it's difficult to do both. Going for points inevitably impacts your ability to win an all-out bunch sprint finish. If Sagan focused 100% on the sprint finishes then I'm sure he'd have a few more stage wins, but by getting involved in breakaways he is burning matches that mean he struggles to compete for straight line speed with the likes of Cav, Kittel or Greipel.

I would argue Sagan does pretty good at the sprints for not being a "pure" sprinter. Hell, he's bumping heads with Cav (he finished 2nd to the 2 best sprinters in flat stages in 2016 as well), this year....yes I know Cav was mostly injured this year, but like I said, I think what makes Sagan so good with the green is that when it's a flat stage, he's still top 10 AND when it's a lumpy "flat" stage where he finishes top 3, those pure sprinters are racing for 48th. So then he simply out splits those guys, even if they get a few more wins. But my overwhelming point was that for most 3 week stage races, the points race is won by a sprinter (and that almost with every 3 week bike race the most stage wins is sprinters simply with how the GC race and mountain stages cause a lot of different winners....there rarely is 1 mt climber who wins majority of climbing stages like there is usually 1-2 sprinters that dominant the sprint stages.....see Vuelta this year won by the sprinter with 4 stage wins). Can you allow that statement Jason N?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

You can generalize whatever you want. My only argument is that it is a points competition...not a sprinters competition, not a GC competition, not who wins the most stages competition. History has proven you can win the points race while never winning a flat sprint, being 2 hours back of the GC, or never winning a stage period, let alone a sprint stage.

There is no type of rider that "should" win the points competion...only the rider that gets the most points. It's really that simple.

Eddie Merckx - the cannibal
Bernaud Hinault - the badger

Do you think either of these two would give a f**k.

It's a race not a kids party. If you can win the whole thing, smash the sprints, float up the mountains, and be under age (to get the white jersey) while you are at it, then go for it.

Trentin (rightly) prioritized stage wins over points, but then (wrongly) complained that he didn't win the points jersey.

Great bike rider but cake, eat it, etc etc.

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´Get the most aero and light bike you can get. With the aero advantage you can be saving minutes and with the weight advantage you can be saving seconds. In a race against the clock both matter.´

BMANX

Did he actually complain about it though? I watched the UK highlights last night and when Daniel Friebe interviewed him after the stage he specifically asked him (twice) if he was annoyed at Team Sky and Froome for sprinting to keep the points jersey and he just said that he was obviously disappointed not to win it, but didn't blame them in the slightest; he made the good point that Froome could have wrapped it up on Angliru if he'd have crossed the line in second ahead of Poels on Saturday, so it was a bonus to even be in contention on the last day. And in a quote on Cycling News he seems to fully accept that it's a "Points" classification and not a "Sprinters" classification:

As for the main point of discussion, on the same program David Millar made the point that it would have been disrespectful to the competition if Team Sky had decided they weren't even going to bother contesting it.

This is not the sprint jersey, but a points classification.

That said rules are not always "fair".
Take for example the 10m bike to bike in triathlon.
It is well know that even at 20m there is benefit to stay behind.
So rules help who just is passive or bad cyclist.

Rules are rules, everyone is aware of them and compete within them.

It's for sure not Froome duty to behave differently because of the way the points are given is not fair vs sprinters.

I thought I read somewhere that he described it as a 'joke' that he won so many stages but didn't win the jersey.

Thanks for the clarification.

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´Get the most aero and light bike you can get. With the aero advantage you can be saving minutes and with the weight advantage you can be saving seconds. In a race against the clock both matter.´

BMANX

These kinds of statements remind me why i need to stay away from slowtwitch. Sagan is a true sprinter who happens to have a massive engine, good w/kg, instincts, and the motivation to be extremely well rounded. There are very few sprinters who can regularly beat him. Kittel, Cav, and Gaviria are the top sprinters today who have shown the ability to beat Sagan, otherwise you have a lot of second tier sprinters who occasionally get lucky. Here are the primary examples: Ewan, Theuns, Greipel, Groenewegen, Coquard, Viviani, Demare, Colbrelli, Bouhanni, Swift, Matthews, Kristoff, Degenkolb, and EBH. I was being fairly generous too, Degenkolb and Theuns are not really relevant anymore. If you noticed there are 18 total sprinters excluding Sagan, 15 total is we remove the three sprint kings, please find 5 more second tier sprinters who are better than Sagan.



Edit: a good cycling database is pro cycling stats, they have some great information on the specific breakdowns of each rider and their wins. Cav's stats are crazy, demonstrates his exceptional skill as a true sprinter.