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Thought experiment as to why wax lubes seem to be coming out on top
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The most recent data seems to be suggesting that wax lubes are finishing on the top of the heap in terms of lubrication. This is an interesting development, as wax has been around for quite some time, but it is not utilized as a top performing lubricant in other areas which seem to have significant amounts of money to invest in finding/developing top performing lubricants. So the question that seems to arise is why wax seems to be performing so well in this application. To address this question, one must first ask what a lubricant needs to do. The answer is very simple...it reduces the friction between load bearing surfaces (i.e. bearing surfaces). In many applications, flat ('high' surface area) bearing surfaces have been replaced with material which rolls, thus reducing the friction to regions which retain the rolling material (i.e.rollers or balls). Bicycle chains do not have this, but rather rely on a system of bushings. If the lubricant from the bushings migrates from the load bearing surfaces, then there is no thin film to reduce the friction. The key therefore would be to ensure that there is either no migration of the lubricant from the bearing surface, or alternatively to provide a reservoir of new lubricant. This is where it seems that wax lubricants may excel. They provide a reservoir of lubricant inside of each bushing to replenish the lubrication.

So that is all good and fine as a thought experiment is about as useful as rainbow...it can look pretty, but it won't support a truck going over it. So what if there was a lubricant that was designed to not migrate from bearing surfaces under conditions that all other lubricants did? How about a lubricant that was made for zero gravity by rocket scientists (literally). Krytox is (and has been available) for some time, and was designed for the shuttle program. It is a perfluorinated compound that is readily available, and cheaper than the newest lubes touted as the new 'sliced bread'. Anyone interested in testing it? It has already been tested in space and extensively on Earth as well. Just some thoughts in response to the recent batch of complaints about the new lubes and the like.

Stephen J

I believe my local reality has been violated.
____________________________________________
Happiness = Results / (Expectations)^2
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Re: Thought experiment as to why wax lubes seem to be coming out on top [stephenj] [ In reply to ]
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Two comments. From what I've read (as a layperson) is that wax actually migrates more than petro-based lubes. That's why it needs to be applied more frequently, generally speaking.

And Krytox has already been tried. There's Finish Line Krytech (wax-based lube with Krytox additive). And a couple other have tried it, I think. I don't know if it's been tried with a petroleum base, though.

Teflon seems to be favored for bike chains, though, and I suspect there's a reason for that.
Last edited by: trail: Sep 10, 17 7:18
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Re: Thought experiment as to why wax lubes seem to be coming out on top [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
Teflon seems to be favored for bike chains, though, and I suspect there's a reason for that.

I wouldn't mind knowing why. I've used HBN (.070 micron) in ballistic applications for almost 10 years and wouldn't mind using some of my leftovers on a chain lube. I've seen a few random posts that people have had good luck with it, but no scientific data supporting it.
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Re: Thought experiment as to why wax lubes seem to be coming out on top [stephenj] [ In reply to ]
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As you pointed out the chain is just a series of pins and bushing without a continuous lubrication source as you have with a automotive application. The "best" lubricants probably need to do many different things simultaneously. The original Friction Facts lube was a mixture of wax, Molybdimum (MoS2 I think)and PTFE (Teflon). Each lubricant serves a different purpose.

My guess is that if you could get pure Teflon worked into the chain and it would stay in place, it would have the lowest friction.
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Re: Thought experiment as to why wax lubes seem to be coming out on top [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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grumpier.mike wrote:
As you pointed out the chain is just a series of pins and bushing without a continuous lubrication source as you have with a automotive application. The "best" lubricants probably need to do many different things simultaneously. The original Friction Facts lube was a mixture of wax, Molybdimum (MoS2 I think)and PTFE (Teflon). Each lubricant serves a different purpose.

My guess is that if you could get pure Teflon worked into the chain and it would stay in place, it would have the lowest friction.

Therein lies the problem. Teflon (a fluorinated compound) does not stay in place. It is not so much the that friction facts lube has a precise knowledge of what each component is doing, but rather it is a mixture of several things which have been known to be very good compounds at reducing friction. One might also say that they would like to throw some graphene in there as well...speaking of which, anyone out there try some silane functionalized graphene? It is a new catalog item from Sigma.

Stephen J

I believe my local reality has been violated.
____________________________________________
Happiness = Results / (Expectations)^2
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Re: Thought experiment as to why wax lubes seem to be coming out on top [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
Two comments. From what I've read (as a layperson) is that wax actually migrates more than petro-based lubes. That's why it needs to be applied more frequently, generally speaking.

And Krytox has already been tried. There's Finish Line Krytech (wax-based lube with Krytox additive). And a couple other have tried it, I think. I don't know if it's been tried with a petroleum base, though.

Teflon seems to be favored for bike chains, though, and I suspect there's a reason for that.

Thanks. I forgot about Krytech. You bring up an interesting point...that teflon has been used extensively. I wonder if it is that it is a polymer vs something like krytox which is not, and therefore may allow nanoparticles to remain as a bearing lubricant which can not be 'squished out' whereas even a 'non migrating' lube such as krytox will. If this were the case, then graphene should also be pretty good. Of course this discounts any health risks, which I do not believe are very well worked out.

Stephen J

I believe my local reality has been violated.
____________________________________________
Happiness = Results / (Expectations)^2
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Re: Thought experiment as to why wax lubes seem to be coming out on top [rijndael] [ In reply to ]
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rijndael wrote:
trail wrote:
Teflon seems to be favored for bike chains, though, and I suspect there's a reason for that.


I wouldn't mind knowing why. I've used HBN (.070 micron) in ballistic applications for almost 10 years and wouldn't mind using some of my leftovers on a chain lube. I've seen a few random posts that people have had good luck with it, but no scientific data supporting it.

Here is another piece of interesting information that I forgot about. Teflon was used to coat ballistic projectiles to pierce kevlar. From my rough memory, it was by allowing the projectile to slide between the weave of the kevlar, where a standard projectile just deformed when the kevlar spread the energy out over a larger area. This would imply that under very high loads, teflon will not migrate much...it is just a matter of getting it there and of course keeping it there.

Stephen J

I believe my local reality has been violated.
____________________________________________
Happiness = Results / (Expectations)^2
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Re: Thought experiment as to why wax lubes seem to be coming out on top [stephenj] [ In reply to ]
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stephenj wrote:
Teflon was used to coat ballistic projectiles to pierce kevlar.
The primary objective of adding Teflon was to reduce deflection on hard surfaces and reduce barrel wear from the harder projectiles, which is where the better penetration came from. Teflon reduced the round's ability to penetrate Kevlar.
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Re: Thought experiment as to why wax lubes seem to be coming out on top [rijndael] [ In reply to ]
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I would imagine that the reason wax is coming up as more efficient is that there are no viscosity losses.
Just like taking the grease out of a normal bearing and putting lower viscosity oil in there, you gain efficiency.

This may be the reason why it is so important to have a clean chain to apply the wax, it is just there in the interface and not being constantly moved into and out of the interface like a fluid.
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Re: Thought experiment as to why wax lubes seem to be coming out on top [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]
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You might find this amusing. Molten Speed Wax makes a Molybdimum/PTFE power that you can sprinkle on you chain. The instructions clearly state to not get it on floors or carpets, but of course I got some on my basement floor. It is just a tiny bit of excess that came off the chain and I wiped it up with a paper towel, but after the residue has been tracked around a bit I now have about a 10 sq foot area where the concrete is really slippery. The stuff works as advertised.
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Re: Thought experiment as to why wax lubes seem to be coming out on top [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]
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lyrrad wrote:
I would imagine that the reason wax is coming up as more efficient is that there are no viscosity losses.
Just like taking the grease out of a normal bearing and putting lower viscosity oil in there, you gain efficiency.

This seems to be a common theme amongst a number of the Friction Facts reports, as well as the promo pamphlet for the new $75 chain lube. Their take home message seems to be that viscous drag is the major contributor to resistance in a number of drivetrain parts.

It's made me consider stripping my pedals and BB and lubing (rather than greasing) them for an A-race, but I haven't quite been that desperate yet! Maybe next year...
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Re: Thought experiment as to why wax lubes seem to be coming out on top [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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grumpier.mike wrote:
You might find this amusing. Molten Speed Wax makes a Molybdimum/PTFE power that you can sprinkle on you chain. The instructions clearly state to not get it on floors or carpets, but of course I got some on my basement floor. It is just a tiny bit of excess that came off the chain and I wiped it up with a paper towel, but after the residue has been tracked around a bit I now have about a 10 sq foot area where the concrete is really slippery. The stuff works as advertised.


Haha, that's brilliant.

I'm going to give my chain the PTFE-moly treatment next time round, so it's good to know it works; I'll be very careful with it!
Last edited by: awenborn: Sep 11, 17 6:57
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Re: Thought experiment as to why wax lubes seem to be coming out on top [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
Two comments. From what I've read (as a layperson) is that wax actually migrates more than petro-based lubes. That's why it needs to be applied more frequently, generally speaking.

I recall that Jobst Brandt (who worked on bearings for disk drives at HP, IIRC) said that wax doesn't migrate: it wears away at the point of contact, and must be replenished from an external source (read: reapply wax). Liquid lubricants flow back ("migrate") into the contact point continuously, until there is no lubricant left.

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Re: Thought experiment as to why wax lubes seem to be coming out on top [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:

I recall that Jobst Brandt (who worked on bearings for disk drives at HP, IIRC) said that wax doesn't migrate: it wears away at the point of contact, and must be replenished from an external source (read: reapply wax). Liquid lubricants flow back ("migrate") into the contact point continuously, until there is no lubricant left.

Yeah, you have it right. I clearly "misremembered" because I remember reading pretty much the same thing.
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Re: Thought experiment as to why wax lubes seem to be coming out on top [awenborn] [ In reply to ]
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The place to ask questions about lubrication is BITOG, http://www.BobIsTheOilGuy.com. That's where the tribologists hang out. They have a subforum for bikes, altho it might not be oriented on lubrication. I went thru a phase, years ago, where I was all hot to learn more about engine oil for (car) racing applications. I never noticed until just now that the site had a bike subforum.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/forums/54/1/Bicycles

I'm pretty strong on engine lubrication, but I don't know much about chain lubrication. Talking out of my BSME butt, I'd bet that chain lube contamination is a big variable in chain lube efficiency. Therefore I'd bet that one of the charms of wax is that it is slower to get contaminated with power robbing grit.

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"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: Thought experiment as to why wax lubes seem to be coming out on top [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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Sure, that's definitely a consideration and wax really is a step ahead there.

However, I think most people presume that when the Watts really matter (i.e. when you're racing) that you'll be doing it on a clean drivetrain and any contamination you'd pick up during a single-session would be fairly minimal, whichever lube you use.

I guess it'd be more of a concern if you're doing gravel races or mountain biking where things can get dirty very quickly.
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Re: Thought experiment as to why wax lubes seem to be coming out on top [stephenj] [ In reply to ]
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stephenj wrote:
The most recent data seems to be suggesting that wax lubes are finishing on the top of the heap in terms of lubrication. This is an interesting development, as wax has been around for quite some time, but it is not utilized as a top performing lubricant in other areas which seem to have significant amounts of money to invest in finding/developing top performing lubricants. So the question that seems to arise is why wax seems to be performing so well in this application. To address this question, one must first ask what a lubricant needs to do. The answer is very simple...it reduces the friction between load bearing surfaces (i.e. bearing surfaces). In many applications, flat ('high' surface area) bearing surfaces have been replaced with material which rolls, thus reducing the friction to regions which retain the rolling material (i.e.rollers or balls). Bicycle chains do not have this, but rather rely on a system of bushings. If the lubricant from the bushings migrates from the load bearing surfaces, then there is no thin film to reduce the friction. The key therefore would be to ensure that there is either no migration of the lubricant from the bearing surface, or alternatively to provide a reservoir of new lubricant. This is where it seems that wax lubricants may excel. They provide a reservoir of lubricant inside of each bushing to replenish the lubrication.

So that is all good and fine as a thought experiment is about as useful as rainbow...it can look pretty, but it won't support a truck going over it. So what if there was a lubricant that was designed to not migrate from bearing surfaces under conditions that all other lubricants did? How about a lubricant that was made for zero gravity by rocket scientists (literally). Krytox is (and has been available) for some time, and was designed for the shuttle program. It is a perfluorinated compound that is readily available, and cheaper than the newest lubes touted as the new 'sliced bread'. Anyone interested in testing it? It has already been tested in space and extensively on Earth as well. Just some thoughts in response to the recent batch of complaints about the new lubes and the like.

Stephen J


About 30 years ago my uncle was using wax with graphite on his old Peugeot bike chain....

Nothing new, actually it is all about marketing, you can make your own lube for any conditions quite quickly with all the exotic materials those day available on eBay.
And sell it as UFO or other crap...Just make up some good story to it.
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