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Fitting advice: is a Cervelo P2 that long compared to Canyon Speedmax?
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A few months ago I've had a bike fitting for my road bike. Well two actually, one more basic one based on body measurements and computer model; afterwards refined with a more extensive fitting with video / body angles on the bike.
I attached computer model and results from more extensive fitting.








I'm now in the market for a TT bike, and already got the results from that same computer model for my measurements as a starter (since the results from more extensive fitting were fairly close to that model to make assumptions). For reference, I'm 186cm / ~ 6'1". I do intend to perform that same more extensive fitting for a TT position.



If I look around on the Canyon website ( https://www.canyon.com/...edmax-cf-8-0-sl.html ) that would land me a Speedmax size M I think (I looked at reach: 473 / stack: 645 if I interpreted the model correctly). They do specify measurements from BB to pads.

If I look on the Cervelo site ( https://www.cervelo.com/...ecs%20and%20geometry ) however I can't find a P2 which would fit me. Based on stack I would guess a size 56, but that has a way too long reach? But they do specify measurements from BB to top tube / head tube; so perhaps I made some errors while comparing. BB to head tube would be 353mm based on my measurements, while the P2 goes from 381 to 446 ... so either I made some errors, or that P2 is really long compared to the Canyon?

Do note, I have no brand preference, I just started with these two based on dealer / service point vicinity; and I heard good things from the P2 for price/quality/adjustability.
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Re: Fitting advice: is a Cervelo P2 that long compared to Canyon Speedmax? [tdupas] [ In reply to ]
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It is a bit difficult to compare a road and Tri fit. Pad location and the degree to which you are comfortable have your arms in a more Super-manned position can change the pad X. The Speed Concept is about as versatile a cockpit as you will find and it is unlikely you will find a much faster frame. The 7.5 is a pretty good deal with Ultegra and wide, tubeless ready aero wheels.
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Re: Fitting advice: is a Cervelo P2 that long compared to Canyon Speedmax? [tdupas] [ In reply to ]
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the reach on the speed max is measured from a different spot. They are going from in front of the arm pads. So I think you may be right. It's hard to tell because canyon doesn't give all the numbers.

Cervelos have always been long though so it would t surprise me. I'm 6'1" and ride a 54 p5.
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Re: Fitting advice: is a Cervelo P2 that long compared to Canyon Speedmax? [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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grumpier.mike wrote:
It is a bit difficult to compare a road and Tri fit. Pad location and the degree to which you are comfortable have your arms in a more Super-manned position can change the pad X. The Speed Concept is about as versatile a cockpit as you will find and it is unlikely you will find a much faster frame. The 7.5 is a pretty good deal with Ultegra and wide, tubeless ready aero wheels.

Thanks for the Speed Concept tip, just checked the website/dimensions and a L should work I think; have to verify if there is a Trek dealer in the neighbourhood though.
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Re: Fitting advice: is a Cervelo P2 that long compared to Canyon Speedmax? [tdupas] [ In reply to ]
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to be clear, you're hoping to extrapolate a set of fit coordinates for a tri bike based off your road bike fitting. yes?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Fitting advice: is a Cervelo P2 that long compared to Canyon Speedmax? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
to be clear, you're hoping to extrapolate a set of fit coordinates for a tri bike based off your road bike fitting. yes?

Not exactly, I'll elaborate my point of view; might very well be that you already understood it as such.
I did get a TT fit (bottom attachment in the post) from the same guys who did the initial road fit last time. So no this isn't an extensive fitting session yet, which I still intend to do like I did for the road bike.

I included the road fitting data from initial model and extensive fitting to show that they were very close; hoping that I could use their TT modeled fit as a baseline to scope a bike.
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Re: Fitting advice: is a Cervelo P2 that long compared to Canyon Speedmax? [tdupas] [ In reply to ]
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tdupas wrote:
Slowman wrote:
to be clear, you're hoping to extrapolate a set of fit coordinates for a tri bike based off your road bike fitting. yes?


Not exactly, I'll elaborate my point of view; might very well be that you already understood it as such.
I did get a TT fit (bottom attachment in the post) from the same guys who did the initial road fit last time. So no this isn't an extensive fitting session yet, which I still intend to do like I did for the road bike.

I included the road fitting data from initial model and extensive fitting to show that they were very close; hoping that I could use their TT modeled fit as a baseline to scope a bike.

okay, but i wasn't clear how that tt fit was performed. let me give you some leading questions to answer:

1. was it a "dynamic" fit for your tt position? in other words, did they put you on that fit bike you show for your road fit? did they go through a process of you pedaling, the position is morphing as you're pedaling? or did they - the fitters - extrapolate a set of tt coordinates without putting you through that process?

2. do you have a set of pad x/y coordinates given you by the fitter, with an explanation of where they're measuring on the pad?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Fitting advice: is a Cervelo P2 that long compared to Canyon Speedmax? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
okay, but i wasn't clear how that tt fit was performed. let me give you some leading questions to answer:

1. was it a "dynamic" fit for your tt position? in other words, did they put you on that fit bike you show for your road fit? did they go through a process of you pedaling, the position is morphing as you're pedaling? or did they - the fitters - extrapolate a set of tt coordinates without putting you through that process?

2. do you have a set of pad x/y coordinates given you by the fitter, with an explanation of where they're measuring on the pad?

1. No "dynamic" fit in that sense, that's what I meant with the computer model. The model is result of inputting my body measurements from previous fitting session into their TT bike model; as a first step to narrow the field of bikes. That's how I did it for the road bike as well, first did the basic "computer model" ballpark estimation where I based the bike search on. Then once I had the bike I went for the elaborate session lasting 2-3 hours where everything was measured, various setups trialed on that mock-up bike; video taken for body angles etc. At the end of the session my bike was modified to fit that mock-up model. The pictures of the mock-up with size was just for future reference.
So that also answers question 2, as a no; since that session hasn't taken place yet.

I am awaiting a session slot confirmation for another elaborate testing, this time for TT position. But based on previous timeline I'll probably have to wait a few weeks to find a free slot.
Are you suggesting it's a bad idea to mimic the approach I did for the road bike, and that it's better to do that elaborate session before scouting the bike? Also happy to go down that path of course if that is deemed more appropriate, there is no pressing urgency (yes, there are some end-of-season discounts of ~500€ at Canyon at this moment; which does sound appealing)
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Re: Fitting advice: is a Cervelo P2 that long compared to Canyon Speedmax? [tdupas] [ In reply to ]
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tdupas wrote:
Slowman wrote:

okay, but i wasn't clear how that tt fit was performed. let me give you some leading questions to answer:

1. was it a "dynamic" fit for your tt position? in other words, did they put you on that fit bike you show for your road fit? did they go through a process of you pedaling, the position is morphing as you're pedaling? or did they - the fitters - extrapolate a set of tt coordinates without putting you through that process?

2. do you have a set of pad x/y coordinates given you by the fitter, with an explanation of where they're measuring on the pad?


1. No "dynamic" fit in that sense, that's what I meant with the computer model. The model is result of inputting my body measurements from previous fitting session into their TT bike model; as a first step to narrow the field of bikes. That's how I did it for the road bike as well, first did the basic "computer model" ballpark estimation where I based the bike search on.
interesting. i wonder what the whole point of your fitter owning a fit bike is, if a fit bike built for dynamic fitting is not used for dynamic fitting.

tdupas wrote:
Then once I had the bike I went for the elaborate session lasting 2-3 hours where everything was measured, various setups trialed on that mock-up bike; video taken for body angles etc. At the end of the session my bike was modified to fit that mock-up model. The pictures of the mock-up with size was just for future reference.
So that also answers question 2, as a no; since that session hasn't taken place yet.
that's backwards. you get the elaborate fitting done before you buy the bike. what you did was order a pair of pants, and then you had elaborate retro tailoring to get the pants to fit you. what you want is to have the elaborate tailoring done first, so that the pants are either custom made or precisely chosen to fit how you ride.

tdupas wrote:
I am awaiting a session slot confirmation for another elaborate testing, this time for TT position. But based on previous timeline I'll probably have to wait a few weeks to find a free slot.
your elaborate testing is going to do what? it sounds like the elaborate testing is done to fit you to a bike you've already purchased.

pardon my french, but jesus h christ on a crutch. how many times do i have to write, rewrite, rewrite, republish, republish, basically the same thing before you guys realize that you don't buy the chemotherapy and then figure out how to doctor it up to fit your cancer. you determine in advance what chemotherapy you need before you buy it. you don't buy a pair of shoes and then take it the cobbler to get the shoes to fit you. you determine in advance what size and model of shoes you need, and then you buy the shoes. how many analogies should i run through before you guys get the point of what order these things take place?

as for the canyon, or any other bike, here is how we do this:

1. you determine what your pad x/y is, based on whatever process you feel comfortable using; just make sure you are confident this is where you want your pads to be.

2. then using a fairly simple set of math calculations we determine what canyon, diamondback, premierbike, orbea, trek, quintana roo, felt, scott, blah blah blah, you want, and we do that with great granularity: this model, this size, this stem, these pedestals, etc.

that is how we do it. any other process is horseshit.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Fitting advice: is a Cervelo P2 that long compared to Canyon Speedmax? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
tdupas wrote:
Slowman wrote:

okay, but i wasn't clear how that tt fit was performed. let me give you some leading questions to answer:

1. was it a "dynamic" fit for your tt position? in other words, did they put you on that fit bike you show for your road fit? did they go through a process of you pedaling, the position is morphing as you're pedaling? or did they - the fitters - extrapolate a set of tt coordinates without putting you through that process?

2. do you have a set of pad x/y coordinates given you by the fitter, with an explanation of where they're measuring on the pad?


1. No "dynamic" fit in that sense, that's what I meant with the computer model. The model is result of inputting my body measurements from previous fitting session into their TT bike model; as a first step to narrow the field of bikes. That's how I did it for the road bike as well, first did the basic "computer model" ballpark estimation where I based the bike search on.

interesting. i wonder what the whole point of your fitter owning a fit bike is, if a fit bike built for dynamic fitting is not used for dynamic fitting.

tdupas wrote:
Then once I had the bike I went for the elaborate session lasting 2-3 hours where everything was measured, various setups trialed on that mock-up bike; video taken for body angles etc. At the end of the session my bike was modified to fit that mock-up model. The pictures of the mock-up with size was just for future reference.
So that also answers question 2, as a no; since that session hasn't taken place yet.

that's backwards. you get the elaborate fitting done before you buy the bike. what you did was order a pair of pants, and then you had elaborate retro tailoring to get the pants to fit you. what you want is to have the elaborate tailoring done first, so that the pants are either custom made or precisely chosen to fit how you ride.

tdupas wrote:
I am awaiting a session slot confirmation for another elaborate testing, this time for TT position. But based on previous timeline I'll probably have to wait a few weeks to find a free slot.

your elaborate testing is going to do what? it sounds like the elaborate testing is done to fit you to a bike you've already purchased.

pardon my french, but jesus h christ on a crutch. how many times do i have to write, rewrite, rewrite, republish, republish, basically the same thing before you guys realize that you don't buy the chemotherapy and then figure out how to doctor it up to fit your cancer. you determine in advance what chemotherapy you need before you buy it. you don't buy a pair of shoes and then take it the cobbler to get the shoes to fit you. you determine in advance what size and model of shoes you need, and then you buy the shoes. how many analogies should i run through before you guys get the point of what order these things take place?

as for the canyon, or any other bike, here is how we do this:

1. you determine what your pad x/y is, based on whatever process you feel comfortable using; just make sure you are confident this is where you want your pads to be.

2. then using a fairly simple set of math calculations we determine what canyon, diamondback, premierbike, orbea, trek, quintana roo, felt, scott, blah blah blah, you want, and we do that with great granularity: this model, this size, this stem, these pedestals, etc.

that is how we do it. any other process is horseshit.

Someone's fired up this morning! It's as if I can feel your frustration coming right through your keyboard. Keep preaching.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: Fitting advice: is a Cervelo P2 that long compared to Canyon Speedmax? [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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lol.

Maybe we sticky Dans post and every time you log in it flashes on your screen as a reminder.
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Re: Fitting advice: is a Cervelo P2 that long compared to Canyon Speedmax? [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
Slowman wrote:
tdupas wrote:
Slowman wrote:

okay, but i wasn't clear how that tt fit was performed. let me give you some leading questions to answer:

1. was it a "dynamic" fit for your tt position? in other words, did they put you on that fit bike you show for your road fit? did they go through a process of you pedaling, the position is morphing as you're pedaling? or did they - the fitters - extrapolate a set of tt coordinates without putting you through that process?

2. do you have a set of pad x/y coordinates given you by the fitter, with an explanation of where they're measuring on the pad?


1. No "dynamic" fit in that sense, that's what I meant with the computer model. The model is result of inputting my body measurements from previous fitting session into their TT bike model; as a first step to narrow the field of bikes. That's how I did it for the road bike as well, first did the basic "computer model" ballpark estimation where I based the bike search on.

interesting. i wonder what the whole point of your fitter owning a fit bike is, if a fit bike built for dynamic fitting is not used for dynamic fitting.

tdupas wrote:
Then once I had the bike I went for the elaborate session lasting 2-3 hours where everything was measured, various setups trialed on that mock-up bike; video taken for body angles etc. At the end of the session my bike was modified to fit that mock-up model. The pictures of the mock-up with size was just for future reference.
So that also answers question 2, as a no; since that session hasn't taken place yet.

that's backwards. you get the elaborate fitting done before you buy the bike. what you did was order a pair of pants, and then you had elaborate retro tailoring to get the pants to fit you. what you want is to have the elaborate tailoring done first, so that the pants are either custom made or precisely chosen to fit how you ride.

tdupas wrote:
I am awaiting a session slot confirmation for another elaborate testing, this time for TT position. But based on previous timeline I'll probably have to wait a few weeks to find a free slot.

your elaborate testing is going to do what? it sounds like the elaborate testing is done to fit you to a bike you've already purchased.

pardon my french, but jesus h christ on a crutch. how many times do i have to write, rewrite, rewrite, republish, republish, basically the same thing before you guys realize that you don't buy the chemotherapy and then figure out how to doctor it up to fit your cancer. you determine in advance what chemotherapy you need before you buy it. you don't buy a pair of shoes and then take it the cobbler to get the shoes to fit you. you determine in advance what size and model of shoes you need, and then you buy the shoes. how many analogies should i run through before you guys get the point of what order these things take place?

as for the canyon, or any other bike, here is how we do this:

1. you determine what your pad x/y is, based on whatever process you feel comfortable using; just make sure you are confident this is where you want your pads to be.

2. then using a fairly simple set of math calculations we determine what canyon, diamondback, premierbike, orbea, trek, quintana roo, felt, scott, blah blah blah, you want, and we do that with great granularity: this model, this size, this stem, these pedestals, etc.

that is how we do it. any other process is horseshit.


Someone's fired up this morning! It's as if I can feel your frustration coming right through your keyboard. Keep preaching.

i guess what bothers me is that we have a pretty well agreed upon, fairly widely understood, process for selecting bikes. what might not be agreed upon is the process whereby we arrive at fit coordinates. okay. maybe you and i arrive at a somewhat different set because we enter a process with different imperatives. maybe mine is comfort and yours is drag. i don't see that as a conflict. a difference in desired outcomes drives the fit in different directions, tho i doubt your fits and mine generate terribly different coordinates.

maybe you believe in a different protocol than i do for generating fit coordinates. we can argue different protocols. but i think what nobody should argue, today, is that, ideally, we arrive at fit coordinates before we make a bike decision. and, we agree on what those fit coordinates are. we, the fitters, and the bike manufacturers, all agree on what the coordinates are. all the tri bike companies make pad x/y prescribers and that say, implicitly, that pad x/y are the necessary fit coordinates, beyond all others (except for saddle height and fore/aft).

further, because bike companies differ on where on the pads you must measure before using their fit prescribers, fitters must give their customers pad x/y to center, and to back, of the pads. so, how hard is that? saddle height, saddle fore/aft, pad x/y to rear and to center. is that hard?

then, the customer takes these and he chooses his bike.

we all agree on this, i think. where do you live where you don't have access to this? if you're a customer, you have to actively resist seeing this. if you're a fitter, you have to obstinately, with passion and energy, actively resist understanding that this is where we are as an industry.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Fitting advice: is a Cervelo P2 that long compared to Canyon Speedmax? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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TL;DR: I get your frustration / message, I'll go the other way around. Just a novice, following advice ...


Slowman wrote:
interesting. i wonder what the whole point of your fitter owning a fit bike is, if a fit bike built for dynamic fitting is not used for dynamic fitting.
...
that's backwards. you get the elaborate fitting done before you buy the bike. what you did was order a pair of pants, and then you had elaborate retro tailoring to get the pants to fit you. what you want is to have the elaborate tailoring done first, so that the pants are either custom made or precisely chosen to fit how you ride.
Perhaps that's some confusion I created. That computer model / initial "fit" is not from the bike fitter where the fit bike pictures came from. Those are 2 different places/persons.
That initial fit is basically taking all body measurements, entering it into a model and then if you have a bike they'll modify it to that spec. Nothing more, they don't have a fit bike (or at least didn't propose any / didn't see any) or do any more in-depth analysis. That might not qualify as a fitter in such terminology perhaps. It's a baseline where you can practically get an appointment for tomorrow if you call today, since it only takes <30 minutes they can do plenty persons per day.
At the time I was scouting for a second hand bike, and needed a rough idea of which bikes would fit me with some modifications and which not.

The elaborate fitting session only happened weeks later (since there was no other slot available earlier), and took close to 3 hours; hence the lead time before getting an available spot. That's where the fit bike, video etc came from. And that's where bike got modified, parts replaced if needed (it's also a bike shop, so parts available at hand) on the spot.
It was very convenient / worked for the road bike, assumed it would work the same for tri bike. Reading from your comments I either *got lucky* that it worked out last time, or it's more that a tri position has many more variables making it impossible to get a decent ballpark dimension to start from. I could understand both, so I'll just wait till I get a slot / session / results and see where that brings me; and afterwards another session to get the bike sized to that prior fit.
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Re: Fitting advice: is a Cervelo P2 that long compared to Canyon Speedmax? [tdupas] [ In reply to ]
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hopefully, based on my descriptions here in the thread, you get a sense of how this should go. i understand you're a novice. nevertheless, if you want to read about bike fitting we have a fair amount of that info findable from the front page.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Fitting advice: is a Cervelo P2 that long compared to Canyon Speedmax? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Well, if it helps at all, your words are not falling on deaf ears. 3 of my 5 clients today are Pre-Purchase Fits. Some people are getting it. The consumer direct model will drive more people to understand the need to get fit before purchasing a bike.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: Fitting advice: is a Cervelo P2 that long compared to Canyon Speedmax? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
tdupas wrote:
Slowman wrote:
i wonder what the whole point of your fitter owning a fit bike is, if a fit bike built for dynamic fitting is not used for dynamic fitting.

pardon my french, but jesus h christ on a crutch. how many times do i have to write, rewrite, rewrite, republish, republish, basically the same thing before you guys realize that you don't buy the chemotherapy and then figure out how to doctor it up to fit your cancer. you determine in advance what chemotherapy you need before you buy it. you don't buy a pair of shoes and then take it the cobbler to get the shoes to fit you. you determine in advance what size and model of shoes you need, and then you buy the shoes. how many analogies should i run through before you guys get the point of what order these things take place?

that is how we do it. any other process is horseshit.

THANK YOU ALMIGHTY JESUS
because it's these threads that make me bang my head into the computer screen. Why do we even attempt a professional accreditation process when every pickle head can graduate. I'm not yelling at the OP....

To be fair, this is the first post by Tdupas, so welcome to the ST Forum. I'm guessing that OP is in the EU, as that is Bioracer data. But bikefitting.com is something different, so I am curious.

First thing wrong is 175 cranks. Second thing is sitting at 72.5 degree seat angle. I could go on, but here's my thing: if I were the person who had initially fit you, and you had come to me to ask about TT frame selection, I would get you in for a TT specific fitting asap, and not have you floundering about in digital air trying to figure shit out on your own. Customer service first, seat angles and crank length second.

Secondly, it is easy for me, having already done a 2 hour extensive fitting session, to go into a corner and do some easy math and rough out a TT position on my fit bike without you even on it to get you 95% there on frame size options.

Anne Barnes
ABBikefit, Ltd
FIST/SICI/FIST DOWN DEEP
X/Y Coordinator
abbikefit@gmail.com
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Re: Fitting advice: is a Cervelo P2 that long compared to Canyon Speedmax? [ABarnes] [ In reply to ]
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You are so right, and still people buy or either get bikes sold that makes you wonder why.....yesterday i .got a customer coming in with a new giant trinity. He was a bit at age and i looked at the bike set up, so i ask him, is your son putting away the car? He looked at me...and said my son? I, yes, because this is not your bike, right? or is the booked fit session for you.....? It was. You could see the fear in his eyes when i told him the bike was way too long for him

Long story short, he had done a OD race and 2 training rides, full distance next weekend and he was like sooooo stretched out in this bike. He experienced serious back problems and other discomfort
Impossible to get it to the right dimensions, i felt so bad for the guy. After 30 min of explaining we did a fit for a new bike and wrote a report for him to go back with the trinity to the shop that sold him the bike. They, those regular bike shops that sell just city bikes, but also can order any other giant bike just don't seem to realize what they are selling.

But it almost hurt to see the dissapointment in his eyes when he realized after my explanation that his way of first buying and than the fiiting was the wrong sequence.

Jeroen

Owner at TRIPRO, The Netherlands
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Re: Fitting advice: is a Cervelo P2 that long compared to Canyon Speedmax? [ABarnes] [ In reply to ]
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I'll probably have an update soon, appointment at the dynamic fitting is booked for later this week. Surprised but happy with the availability, it was close to "beginning of season" last time, probably rush hour at fitters.

ABarnes wrote:
I'm guessing that OP is in the EU, as that is Bioracer data. But bikefitting.com is something different, so I am curious.
Correct about EU, Belgium in fact; as probably could have guessed since bioracer is from Belgium.
Bioracer is listed on the bike fitting.com website as offering static fitting services, so that's what they did / that's why it's showing bikefitting.com on those dimension drawings. It's a sports clothing company, static fitting is probably only one of the minor things they offer on the side since body measurements are something they have to perform anyhow for clientele in their core business.
ABarnes wrote:
First thing wrong is 175 cranks. Second thing is sitting at 72.5 degree seat angle. I could go on, but here's my thing: if I were the person who had initially fit you, and you had come to me to ask about TT frame selection, I would get you in for a TT specific fitting asap, and not have you floundering about in digital air trying to figure shit out on your own. Customer service first, seat angles and crank length second.
never paid attention to the crank length on that drawing, but the bike has 172.5mm opposed to 175mm if that's what you were referring to?
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Re: Fitting advice: is a Cervelo P2 that long compared to Canyon Speedmax? [tdupas] [ In reply to ]
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I think that Anne was trying to say that you should be using much shorter cranks on a time trial bike. Probably 170mm or 165mm. It can help with hip rotation, which can lead to a more aerodynamic position.
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