can i ask you who fit you? those are very aggressive numbers. is this a position you've been riding, and you're comfortable with it?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

A local guy, I can't remember his name but when I asked around in the local tri and cycling community, he came highly recommended. I haven't been riding this position, up until now I have been on a road bike with clip-ons. But I didn't experience any particular discomfort on the test bike. I also specifically asked for an aggressive fit, as I target sprint, oly and TTs.

I don't have a picture of the position, unfortunately. I guess I should have asked for that.

i assume you're between 6' and 6'2"?

i want you to look at LAI's position on his bike. see how forward he is? and how low? that's what you're looking at.

this kind of stuff really cheeses me. i published a product review yesterday of a motion capture system. one of the features of this system is that the camera is simultaneously measuring your body angles and taking a video of the position so that you can see what you look like, and there's a reference for others if you so choose. when i go around the country fitting people i typically take a video, even if it's just with my iphone.

so, yes, i can prescribe a bike for you based on that pad x/y. but your position is going to look like LAI's or kileyay's. make sure that's what you want.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I'm 6'.

Yes, something similar to kileyay's fit is exactly what I'm looking for.

Am I being unreasonable, and overestimating my ability to hold aero? I have never had any problems holding aero. Admittedly, on my roadie I were never able to achieve such an aggressive position. I was still lower on that set up than most guys I see at local races on TT bikes (which doesn't say much, as most guys are basically in a roadie position with aerobars).

Edit: formatting

kiley's is an outlier position. here's a chart. find yourself: 594mm x 523mm. see how many other people are near your position.



can you ride this position? maybe. i don't know. i'm not bothered by the 594mm by the way, for a guy 6' tall. it's low, but it's not off the charts. i'm bothered by the 523mm. i'm concerned that your elbows are too far in front of your shoulders. kiley can hold that position for 56mi. very few people can.

if you can, fine. but if you buy a bike on the assumption that this is your position and you find out you can't hold the position, that's an expensive experiment.

to cut to the chase of your original post, you will likely be one of those who fits a bar, and you buy the bar - this is your primary purchase - and then you buy the bike as a "component" to the bar. the bar you'll buy is a tririg, and it doesn't matter whether it's the alpha x or alpha c (nick, do you still make the alpha c?).

tririg has a terrific sizing system for the alpha x. for example, you're right smack dab in the center of an alpha x, with the undermount config, no stem spacers, 5mm of pad spacers, on a frame with 540mm stack and 425mm reach (cervelo in 56cm, for example).

note that you can't ride with anything but an undermount option on a tririg alpha x even with a 54cm cervelo. this underscores the likelihood that your most important decision is the aerobar, be it tririg, PRO or possibly enve.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Okay, I see your point. I'll look around at different bar/frame combinations, and I'll try to find something where I have the possibility to relax the position, if needed. As I said, I'm not concerned about holding the position for 56 miles, as I'm not interested in going that long.

Thanks for your input!

What saddle was used during the session? Do you know any of the saddle measurements (saddle tip behind the BB, saddle height, etc.)?

The reason I ask is because I'm wondering if you ended up really far forward. Do you have a long torso/short legs?

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Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador

I think you continue to not understand the point I was making in the initial "fit predictor" thread. I think you are making two mistakes: 1) you are prescribing fit coordinates without taking anything qualitative into account; and b) you are prescribing absolute quantitative fit coordinates.

In the absence of a qualitative input to your maths -- whether the athlete, for instance, has a stated willingness to subordinate comfort to performance -- or in addition to the qualitative inputs, ranges would serve athletes and consumers better. If this person is saying he wants a bike for those figures, maybe assume he's going to be +/- 20mm, or, in this case, because he is so aggressive relative to the athlete body politic with those figures, a bike that provides for -10 mm and +40mm. This isn't Brad Wiggins' hour record bike -- the fit coordinates aren't fore-ordained as part of the bike construction. The bike provides for ranges and so should your recommendation of coordinates and by extension bikes.

In the past couple years, I have run a stack of anywhere from 555mm to 585mm and a reach of anywhere between 476 and 510ish, and all of those fits were good fits. I'd be pretty pissed if I gave you my figures and you told me to buy a Scott Plasma, which has a min stack of 575. Why wouldn't you recommend a small Speed Concept, or a Felt IAx with Alpha X? Your recommendation should take in account the possibilities of desired fit changes, of fit transformation over time, etc.

This was me in 2014 at 559 and 420 (back of pad). That was the right bike for me then and it's the right bike for me now. I have never needed to go lower than 555 on the stack front, and that size small Speed Concept allows a reach out to nearly the max I have ever run (when I was overly stretched out).

I can't believe I'm the one arguing with you over shades of grey. Normally I'm the absolutist.

whoa. i think you're mixing up a couple of discussions that don't have anything to do with each other. my "fit predictor" math (if that's what you're referring to) is an absolute last resort. if you have no idea how you should fit a bike. if you live in yellowknife. if you have no other access or option or wisdom or help. then there's plan-z: type in your overall height and saddle height, here's your pad xy.

what i'm saying to this fellow is, are you sure this is your position? this isn't you i'm talking to you. i wouldn't ask that question of you. this person just got a fit. a fitter suggested this. i think you already think - based on previous posts of yours - that you should double and triple check the advice a garden variety fitter gives you before you make an expensive purchase based on it. i don't disagree.

when you are that far off of the norm, then i think it's worth asking that second question before you simply prescribe a bike, unless it's a rider that has toiled to generate a position, spent a lot of time in it, and has found success with it (as you have). then, no, no need to second guess. finding the bike is a math problem. easy peasy. making sure it's time to head straight to the bike prescribing math, i think that's a worthwhile few posts to spend.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Okay, most of that I am not disputing. And I totally agree this guy should submit a video of him on a bike at those coordinates to this thread prior to doing anything so stupid as buying a bike based on some guy's name he doesn't even remember and who didn't get a video or images of him during his fit.

But let's assume that his fitter got him in the ball park. For maximum flexibility, I would recommend to him a large Shiv TT with, say, a Profile Design Aeria Ultimate. Or, large Shiv TT with Tririg Alpha X pads at center, ultra low duster cap, and 20mm of pad spacers. This would allow him to go 20mm lower, without dismantling anything, or as much as 50mm lower, with undermount. If he so desired, he could go as high as +40mm with just pad spacers (same reach).

Alternatively, a Cervelo P4 56 with an Alpha X, pads at -10mm, and no pad or stem spacers. Or keep the stock Ventus, but that's going to provide less in the way of flexibility.

I provide consulting services on fits and bike purchases. PM me for details, my current work is all done pro bono. They should really pay me for this though

never gonna happen. as they say in maine, "you can't get there from here."

i'm still not sure you can get there from here. lowest is 615mm pady without fidding with non-stock parts (like dust covers). and that is with the undermount.

if he goes with an alpha X he's got all kinds of options, but best is to start with a bike like this, that doesn't begin life as a narrow/tall frame geometry.

maybe the best current geometry for him in a frame is an orbea ordu omp. but any of these bikes will work as long as they are 540mm of stack or lower, and 425mm of reach or longer.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Thanks for all the advice. I'll talk to my fitter again before buying anything, and see if we can validate the position.

maybe get a video of it and post it here.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

While I share Slowmans reservations about those coordinates without further info, it's not hard to find some options. (saddle position and pad width just dummy values)


With an Aeria Ultimate you would be on a 54 Cervelo/52 QR
With a Tririg Alpha X a 56 Cervelo/54 QR

 At present, Alpha Classic is not available. Stay tuned for future developments.

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TriRig.com

it seems to me that in each case you must buy an aftermarket bar, replacing the bar that came on the bike with an aftermarket bar. i think this substantiates my point that your first selection is the bar, and then the bike, especially because all the ergonomics and a lot of the comfort rest in the bar selection.

i also think this underscores a basic, root problem we have in the tri bike industry in particular, and the pro bike market in general: we don't have enough consumer choice during the initial bike purchase.

because of that, when i think about what a lot of the industry thinks about - what will bike companies and local bike shops look like 5 and 10 years from now - i think solving this very problem is going to be a key element.

before you object that this is too complicated, this is how we all bought our bikes in the 1970s and first half of the 80s. we all bought bare frames, and the groupkits, and the wheels, bars, etc., and either built them up ourselves or, most often, had our pro shops build them up.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Slowman, am I missing anything here? I think minimalist can just purchase a bike that has non-integrated stem within ball park of stack ~520. It does't seem hard to get 590 pad stack by slamming a -25 degree , 140mm stem on said bike. Such as zipp's service course 25, profile design's new aeria ultimate stem, or FSA's non series mtb stem.

In short, I think a lot of bikes will work, as long as the bike will take a standard road stem.

What bikes fit? Cervelo P2/3 in 54cm, Orbea Ordu in M, cannondale slice (the corsair bar might be good for an aggressive position), scott plasma 10 series, bmc tm02 in M/L. Basically an orthodox geometry frame with a standard stem should fit.

Let's say we take the cervelo P2/3 in 54cm, add a -25 degree 120mm stem, and we got the base bars mounted at 507/531 (bottom / not center of basebar). Add 85mm for pad stack, and we are right where minimalist's desired pad stack. The zipp service course -25mm is easily < $100. You don't need a new front end. It seems like in pursuit of pedestaled extensions, the humble and cheap stem is forgotten as a fit tool.

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Also, about fit, it seems that we all think that shorter reach is more comfortable. I just bought a tri-bike earlier this year, so I am not experienced, but I have been constantly experiencing with my position. I believe this varies a lot by individual and how are elbows are positioned.
- If I keep my elbows tight (~80 mm extension to extension), I am more comfortable with a long position.
- If I keep my elbows wide (~140mm extension to extension), then I feel more comfortable in a shorter position.
- If I keep my elbows tight and pads short, then I have a lot of trouble keeping my bike stable

Now, what's a faster position? Tight Elbow and Long reach? Wide Elbow and compact reach (better shielding of legs and bta bottle)?

You got my attention.

You are talking about the Shiv Tri. I am talking about the Shiv TT. I also said this.

Not at all, I'm fully on board with replacing the bar.

Do you know the reach on the ENVE SES TT bar/stem combo? I can find stem length, but not stem clamp center to pad center, vertically?

Thanks for the suggestions. While a Shiv TT or a P4 would be awesome, those are hard to come by where I am. But I'm probably looking at the Enve bar or the Aeria Ultimate. It looks like a lot of frames will work with those, and I'll still have adjustability in all directions.

I'll talk to my fitter again, and I won't rush into buying anything. I'm shopping for next season, so I'll take my time.

P.S. Me not remembering my fitters name is probably a result of my inability to remember anyone's name, but that's another topic.