Driveway help - homeowner advice needed!

Aug 28, 17 9:33

Post #1 of 24 (2268 views)

For those of you who've dealt with contractors, towns, permits, I'm looking for some advice. My wife and I are looking at homes and came across one that we love, it checks all the boxes and then some. The problem is it's on a very busy, 40mph speed limit road. We have a dumbass dog who'll need a fenced-in area and are planning on kids, which is terrifying on such a road. We would NOT consider this house given the driveway access to the busy road.

It also abuts a quiet side street; the house sits almost equidistant between the two roads, slightly closer to the busy road but not much. There's a slope--from the main road up to the side road--that looks like it hits 8-10 degrees, so any driveway change would have to kinda circle the house. I attached satellite images of the property that lay things out - the approx property line, current drive and what I'm thinking we can do.

We're talking about something like this:
1. rip up existing drive
2. apply for zoning/street address change
3. rip up some trees on the side street side of property
4. re-route drive around perimeter onto the side street
5. install 6' privacy fence along ~170 stretch of main road
6. live peacefully on our new quiet side street home

There are strong comps for this home that went for $60-80K above the asking for this house, the only difference is they have quiet side streets and this sits on a busy main road. I plan on calling the town building/zoning department today to discuss legality/feasibility. I've done some basic cost estimates and it looks like it'd be pretty expensive - $3-4K for asphalt removal, the tree work would be DIY, $2-3K for grading, the new driveway would be at least $10K to install, fence looks like it'd run $2-6K depending on whether I can DIY that piece, then another $1-2 grand for permitting, equipment, misc - so all-in anywhere from $18K up to $35K.

It'd be expensive but we can afford it, I think the increase to property value would at least offset the expense, and we'd then have our awesome, almost-perfect house with the quiet side street and neighborhood we're looking for.

For those of you who have DIY'd stuff like this, gone through inspectors and zoning boards and pulled permits and worked with contractors, what are your impressions, your advice? I'm fairly handy but legitimately have never operated anything bigger than a ride-on mower. I think the PLAN is sound, but having never gone through a process even remotely like this I'm worried that it becomes one of those nightmare three-year money pit projects. Thoughts, advice?

Last edited by: Brownie28: Aug 28, 17 9:36

Re: Driveway help - homeowner advice needed! [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]

Aug 28, 17 9:46

Post #2 of 24 (2240 views)

Looks like a good plan. I can't say I have ever dealt with planning and zoning, I would be nervous to buy a house before I spoke to them.

My only input would be that I wouldn't go crazy with removing asphalt. I would remove the current portion right at the road and to behind the fence, but I would consider leaving most of it past that. You can never have too much parking IMO. And if you decide you need a shop or something later down the road you already have a driveway to said future shop. Save you a bit of coin in demolition too.

Re: Driveway help - homeowner advice needed! [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]

Aug 28, 17 9:48

Post #3 of 24 (2236 views)

Really depends on your city/legality/NIMBY factor bogging things down. The actual work sounds pretty straight forward, if you can get your plan approved. Any drainage concerns of new driveway? Are there any underground services, right of ways, etc to be aware of? You will no doubt be in need of a survey to confirm grades, layouts etc.

As far as DIY, if you have a lot of free time, go for it. If not, probably not worth it. For tree removal/yard scaping a small machine and landscape crew will do in a day what you will do over 2-4 weekend warrior sessions.

If you want to DIY the fence you can save money by hiring someone just to install the posts. You can buy/install the fence panels and will save a decent amount there for not a huge headache investment.

Long Chile was a silly place.

Re: Driveway help - homeowner advice needed! [aarondb4] [ In reply to ]

Aug 28, 17 9:55

Post #4 of 24 (2223 views)

Thanks. The town is my biggest concern, having never dealt with permits and town departments and approval boards I worry that we'd spend a year dealing with red tape and even then it might not get approved. We'd literally be looking for a new address on a different street and that's what would concern me most, the town being the wrench in the plans.

Re: Driveway help - homeowner advice needed! [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]

Aug 28, 17 10:16

Post #5 of 24 (2191 views)

My only thought is why so long of a driveway, I would be tempted to come in either at something closer to a 45 like the neighbours appears to be or even a right angle to the road. That would do 2 things one is keep you farther from the fence and the other is save you a bunch of the costs. Plus I have a long driveway for my area and I hate shoveling it and that it wastes so much space that I could plant trees or flowers on.

Re: Driveway help - homeowner advice needed! [abies] [ In reply to ]

Aug 28, 17 10:51

Post #6 of 24 (2141 views)

abies wrote:

My only thought is why so long of a driveway, I would be tempted to come in either at something closer to a 45 like the neighbours appears to be or even a right angle to the road. That would do 2 things one is keep you farther from the fence and the other is save you a bunch of the costs. Plus I have a long driveway for my area and I hate shoveling it and that it wastes so much space that I could plant trees or flowers on.

Couple of thoughts:
1. the two-car garage, which would remain, is under the house just in front of where that car is parked in the picture. So we have to consider in/out of that existing area.
2. the slope where the text of 'Existing driveway' is is a little steep - I attached a picture, you can see the very corner of the driveway bottom-left, the garden area on the left and the slope up to the side-street straight ahead with the hammock. Maybe 12-15' incline, 100' distance, it seems too steep for a driveway in my opinion.
3. Going straight up, even if possible slope-wise, cuts into some of the best yard. Looping around lessens the slope, and would be through 90% uncleared forest area anyway.
4. Most of this is an exercise in estimating worst-case cost scenarios. If we looped the drive all the way around like I have it and had to do a bunch of grading and even put in a retaining wall what would it cost? I'm trying to see the worst-case cost so we have at least some idea what it would all cost.

Totally agree about the long drive concerns with maintenance and shoveling, though, along with costs and headache it'd be a pain in the ass to maintain that much longer drive over time.

Last edited by: Brownie28: Aug 28, 17 10:51

Re: Driveway help - homeowner advice needed! [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]

Aug 28, 17 10:53

Post #7 of 24 (2136 views)

Yeah, not sure I like the new drive layout, but hard to tell from overhead.

1) call/visit the town/city most are happy to talk to residents / soon to be. They could give you a quick estimate of zoning and any issues plus what permits would be needed and cost. Really nothing seems that big as long as drainage and septic if you have that are ok. Hardest part might be getting the address changed really.

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Post deleted by spudone [ In reply to ]

Aug 28, 17 10:57

Post #8 of 24 (2132 views)

Re: Driveway help - homeowner advice needed! [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]

Aug 28, 17 11:14

Post #9 of 24 (2114 views)

If you are rationalizing this based on an assumption that the house is underselling by $50-80K due to the driveway being on the larger road, I'd be really cautious on that thought path. I've never seen appraisals take a deduction for this, but I could be wrong. There are also a lot of people/buyers out there that won't care that much about the driveway...at least enough to devalue their purchase price on the market.

Those that do care about it will take maybe the much easier path and erect a privacy fence as you have it depicted but leave the driveway as is. You could even put in an electric sliding gate to keep it enclosed. Use a bit more money to fence in the backyard if you want.

Anyway, do the driveway move if you want, but I wouldn't base it on you'll get a cooresponding bump up in your house value. Just go into it with eyes open on that.

.

.

Re: Driveway help - homeowner advice needed! [spudone] [ In reply to ]

Aug 28, 17 11:37

Post #10 of 24 (2091 views)

spudone wrote:

Quote:

For those of you who have DIY'd stuff like this, gone through inspectors and zoning boards and pulled permits and worked with contractors, what are your impressions, your advice?

Two major pieces of advice from my experience:

1) Figure out your timeline for the permitting and contractors, and then double it. We've had so many issues with contractors missing deadlines. And in this area there are a lot of permit issues that you didn't realize at first ("oh, we were going to take up a lane of the road for a day but by the way, there's a bike lane there and you didn't give the cyclists 48 hours notice. Start over."). Crap like that. The contractors don't seem to volunteer that info, either, and look at you like you're an idiot when one of these issues crops up.

2) Talk to a title officer and research your property and anything adjacent to it. Make sure you fully understand the property lines and any right of way issues before you get started. Sometimes this is not immediately obvious. You don't want to wind up with a neighbor suing you sometime down the road.

Thanks, that's good advice. The current homeowner did a survey for a possible driveway encroachment of one of his neighbors (on the first photo I attached, the top left driveway encroaches this property by about 2 feet), so we actually have a real good idea of property lines.

Point taken on the contractors...I know if we got this house and moved in Oct/Nov we'd get all the plans in order over the winter then start in the spring but yeah, I'm expecting anything to take longer than I'd want.

Re: Driveway help - homeowner advice needed! [Endo] [ In reply to ]

Aug 28, 17 12:06

Post #11 of 24 (2054 views)

Endo wrote:

If you are rationalizing this based on an assumption that the house is underselling by $50-80K due to the driveway being on the larger road, I'd be really cautious on that thought path. I've never seen appraisals take a deduction for this, but I could be wrong. There are also a lot of people/buyers out there that won't care that much about the driveway...at least enough to devalue their purchase price on the market.

I'm basing it on market comps. There are two houses that are very similar size, #rooms/bedrooms/baths, quality of rooms, land. One sold for $70K more, the other $80K more than this is listed. The biggies on this house have been done, roof, septic, newer windows, they redid 2 of 3 bathrooms and the kitchen in the past five years. Our realtor said they routinely see a 10% price reduction for busy roads and that'd be around $40-50K in this case. Not saying it's JUST the road but I think it does have a pretty big impact.

Quote:

Those that do care about it will take maybe the much easier path and erect a privacy fence as you have it depicted but leave the driveway as is. You could even put in an electric sliding gate to keep it enclosed. Use a bit more money to fence in the backyard if you want.

That's a good point, and definitely a consideration. I'm not sure we'd want to deal with the hassle of an electric gate but definitely something we should keep in mind as a much lower cost option.

Re: Driveway help - homeowner advice needed! [Endo] [ In reply to ]

Aug 28, 17 12:38

Post #12 of 24 (2019 views)

I'm a Realtor and a deduction of 5-10% of property value is pretty standard if it is next to a major street. It depends on price, area, and the market.

If you have a $1,000,000 home right next to a busy street in a slow market, it could be on the high side of the deduction and easily be worth $100,000 less than one in the center of the neighborhood. If it is a $150,000 home in a total sellers market with nothing else available, it would be a smaller deduction.

Re: Driveway help - homeowner advice needed! [fartleker] [ In reply to ]

Aug 28, 17 12:42

Post #13 of 24 (2010 views)

fartleker wrote:

I'm a Realtor and a deduction of 5-10% of property value is pretty standard if it is next to a major street. It depends on price, area, and the market.

If you have a $1,000,000 home right next to a busy street in a slow market, it could be on the high side of the deduction and easily be worth $100,000 less than one in the center of the neighborhood. If it is a $150,000 home in a total sellers market with nothing else available, it would be a smaller deduction.

Thanks. Will you still get the deduction in value if the driveway is moved, or is it just because it is on the corner and next to busy street? Probably both matter, he can move his driveway, but in the end, the house will still abut the busier street.

.

Re: Driveway help - homeowner advice needed! [Endo] [ In reply to ]

Aug 28, 17 12:48

Post #14 of 24 (2004 views)

I'd expect the deduction to get reduced by a bit, but not by the cost of a project like this. Being on a major street and exiting onto the major street is worse than backing up to the major street with a neighborhood entrance.

Re: Driveway help - homeowner advice needed! [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]

Aug 28, 17 12:57

Post #15 of 24 (1991 views)

That slope doesn't seem bad to me but you are the one living there and paying for the changes so you get to make the decision.

One other caution, is think about the noise from the busy street, I had a house that backed on to a 50 km/hr 4 lane road, and it sucked we could hardly sit outside because it was too loud to talk. Not sure how busy the road is but I always caution how large of an impact noise can have on the enjoyment of your property.

Ben

Re: Driveway help - homeowner advice needed! [fartleker] [ In reply to ]

Aug 28, 17 12:59

Post #16 of 24 (1989 views)

fartleker wrote:

I'd expect the deduction to get reduced by a bit, but not by the cost of a project like this. Being on a major street and exiting onto the major street is worse than backing up to the major street with a neighborhood entrance.

Yeah that makes sense, thanks for the insight. I don't mind putting money into a project that I'm only getting a portion of back in property value, this is at least as much about safety and enjoying the neighborhood as it is about any future home value.

Re: Driveway help - homeowner advice needed! [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]

Aug 28, 17 14:16

Post #17 of 24 (1944 views)

I'm going to go with keep looking for a more perfect house.

You have found the perfect shoe but it is size 8 and you are size 10. Stop trying to make it fit.

Re: Driveway help - homeowner advice needed! [knewbike] [ In reply to ]

Aug 28, 17 15:25

Post #18 of 24 (1912 views)

knewbike wrote:

I'm going to go with keep looking for a more perfect house.

You have found the perfect shoe but it is size 8 and you are size 10. Stop trying to make it fit.

The funny thing is I actually am a size 8 :) But I get your point...we've been looking for six months and this is the closest to 'perfect' we've seen, not much has really come close at all until this one and we've put offers in on two homes already. It's a real shitty market for buyers and first time homebuyers without much equity like us are in a tough spot.

But I do get your point, thanks for the input.

Re: Driveway help - homeowner advice needed! [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]

Aug 29, 17 18:17

Post #19 of 24 (1812 views)

I suggest buying a different house as well.

Re: Driveway help - homeowner advice needed! [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]

Aug 31, 17 5:00

Post #20 of 24 (1674 views)

I live on a very busy road similar to that one although the speed limit is only 25 but there's tons of traffic (bus route and main commuting road). We also live on the corner similar to that house. Our driveway is on the quiet side street and the rest of the neighbors have their driveway on the main road.

I honestly don't think it makes a huge difference if the driveway is on the main road or the side road. Either way, you're still living on the main road. In my opinion the best reason to move the driveway to the side road would be if you have to back out of the driveway. That looks like a pain in the ass for my neighbors, backing out into a lot of traffic.

I looked into a privacy fence out front but discovered they don't really cut down on road noise. Keep that in mind if you're expecting the fence to cut down on noise a lot.

After a bit of an adjustment period I don't really notice the main road that much anymore. Our whole yard is fenced in which is great for our kids. It also helps that the rest of the house and neighborhood are PERFECT, so the busy road is a compromise we could swallow.

By the way, those road names look familiar. Acton by any chance?

Re: Driveway help - homeowner advice needed! [Triocd] [ In reply to ]

Aug 31, 17 5:28

Post #21 of 24 (1660 views)

Triocd wrote:

I live on a very busy road similar to that one although the speed limit is only 25 but there's tons of traffic (bus route and main commuting road). We also live on the corner similar to that house. Our driveway is on the quiet side street and the rest of the neighbors have their driveway on the main road.

I honestly don't think it makes a huge difference if the driveway is on the main road or the side road. Either way, you're still living on the main road. In my opinion the best reason to move the driveway to the side road would be if you have to back out of the driveway. That looks like a pain in the ass for my neighbors, backing out into a lot of traffic.

I looked into a privacy fence out front but discovered they don't really cut down on road noise. Keep that in mind if you're expecting the fence to cut down on noise a lot.

After a bit of an adjustment period I don't really notice the main road that much anymore. Our whole yard is fenced in which is great for our kids. It also helps that the rest of the house and neighborhood are PERFECT, so the busy road is a compromise we could swallow.

By the way, those road names look familiar. Acton by any chance?

Thanks for the input! Stow actually, but same idea :)

We had a private showing after I posted all this and discussing things with my realtor and thinking more we decided not to put an offer in. The re-routing of the driveway would be very expensive and time-consuming and envisioning what it would look like it'd take away from the yard. But more than that, we considered the busy road with cars flying by and decided we couldn't live with our dog (who HAS to be on a leash, and we'd need a fenced area for him) and any future kids living that close to a major road. I'm already anxious enough about life without that added stress!

In better news the same day we toured this one we looked at another that had just dropped their asking by $25K and we loved it, no compromises on location and it's in better condition too...finding out about an offer this morning, fingers crossed!

Thanks for all the feedback here, I'm pretty psyched to be a homeowner. I love projects and thinking about ways to improve liveability and value, I really can't wait to start making daily trips to the local hardware store.

Re: Driveway help - homeowner advice needed! [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]

Aug 31, 17 6:18

Post #22 of 24 (1641 views)

Brownie28 wrote:

For those of you who've dealt with contractors, towns, permits, I'm looking for some advice.

hey, that's my job.

I woulda guessed Acton too. If it were in Littleton, I've done some work in that town, but not in Stow/Bolton/Harvard. I really wouldn't want a driveway on 117 ;)
If your not already in the Nashoba Valley area, there are some nice running races there - I had a deer cross my path on a trail race last fall in Harvard.

Anyway, this is a minor change in the town's eyes (usually) - you aren't going to be changing the use type, no structural construction. You'd probably have to go in front of the ZBA (Stow's meets the first monday of every month, but if you get that far, call them a few months before, they usually need the application in hand 4 weeks before to get on the agenda).
Call the building department early too. Run your idea by them, you'd probably talk to with either a general/local inspector or the building commissioner. They rather talk with professionals, but almost all the officials are happy to talk with home owners too.

If this feels like too much, I'd suggest hiring a Landscape Architect (if you want a reference, I know a good one). They should be able to take care of the zoning and permit issues (usually it's the contractor that pulls the permit, but zoning issues are done by the design professional). They'll also make sure you don't have any drainage issues.

Re: Driveway help - homeowner advice needed! [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]

Aug 31, 17 7:00

Post #23 of 24 (1622 views)

Cool, I grew up in Stow and used to teach at the middle school. My parents still live right off 117. Great town if you like riding bikes and golfing.

Re: Driveway help - homeowner advice needed! [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]

Aug 31, 17 7:09

Post #24 of 24 (1619 views)

I had a house on a busy street but my driveway was on a very non-busy street.

We moved.

Lots of noise, dust/dirt from the cars, made the back/side yard a lot less enjoyable than you would think.

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