Unfortunately the anti-Islam industry is strong and well funded and misconceptions like this are perpetuated. There are many in this thread.

In fact the Quran requires that Muslims be accepting of all faiths, as Muhammad himself was. He established the Constitution of Medina to govern the way that the many religions and tribes of Medina would co-exist. There are many who say the Magna Carta, and hence the Constitution of the United States, borrows many principles from it and it was the original source of many legal concepts we embrace.

We have a group that meets monthly...mostly Indonesians and mostly Muslims and prayer/Quran discussions are a significant part of the event. The is an openly gay Indonesian man that is a regular at these activities and always welcomed and befriended. Homosexual activity (rather than the state of being a homo-sexually inclined person) is sinful and punishable based on the Quran (just as any unmarried sexual activity is), but the punishment is not stated, so any punishments are based on local government preferences. There are many Muslim countries where homosexual activity is legal, including most of Indonesia.

I think it's equally plausible that the local, individual examples are wise enough to know that as a minority group (for now) in a western society, you don't draw attention to your contrasting inner beliefs.

It applies to all people, not just Muslims. For a collective that espouses tolerance there is a lot of bullying coming from progressives towards conservatives on a variety of topics. The latter are becoming less forthcoming in saying publicly what they truly believe.

You sure about that skipper? Second class citizenship, a special tax, and the treatment of polytheism comes to mind.

Has anyone asked a muslim owned bakery to make a cake for for a gay wedding?

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

To suggest that Muhammad wasn't a violent murderer and their holy texts don't command violence is to deny history and ignore what the books themselves say. Even Muslim leaders like Maajid Nawaz, co-founder of the Quilliam Foundation in the United Kingdom, has said, “We Muslims must admit there are challenging Koranic passages that require reinterpretation today. ... Only by rejecting vacuous literalism are we able to condemn, in principle, ISIS-style slavery, beheading, lashing, amputation & other medieval practices forever (all of which are in the Quran).

According to the Hadith, Muhammad ordered the murder of homosexuals (Abu Dawud 4448 & 4447), adults having consensual sex (Sahih Bukhari 60:79 & Sahih Muslim 17:4196 ), and anyone following their conscience by leaving Islam for another religion (Sahih Bukhari 83:17 & 84:64).

Surah 9 is a command to disavow all treaties with polytheists and to subjugate Jews and Christians (9.29) so that Islam may “prevail over all religions” (9.33). It is fair to wonder whether any non-Muslims in the world are immune from being attacked, subdued or assimilated under this command. Muslims must fight, according to this final chapter of the Quran, and if they do not, then their faith is called into question and they are counted among the hypocrites (9.44-45). If they do fight, they are promised one of two rewards, either spoils of war or heaven through martyrdom. Allah has made a bargain with the mujahid who obeys: Kill or be killed in battle, and paradise awaits (9.111).

Here's a short article from a former Muslim discussing how he couldn't reconcile Islam as a peaceful religion after studying the text: https://www.usatoday.com/...ion-column/81808560/

Yeah I'm sure what the Quran specifies about religious tolerance and how this is handled in the Constitution of Median...these are not really arguable points other than interpretation from Arabic to English (which is not at all straightforward).

Non-muslims under Muhammad or most of the Caliphate were not required to serve in the army (not required to fight the Muslim's wars), so they paid a "reasonable' tax in lieu of required (for Muslims) military service. My understanding is that other taxes were reasonable and customary and based on ability to pay. Not sure what second class citizenship means to you but to my knowledge non-muslims were permitted to hold political office for example and were free to practice their customs. Certainly they weren't being forced to convert to Islam, which was the premise this discussion started with.

Now let's contrast that with the Christian/Byzantine Empire where the only official religion was Christianity, Jews were banned from Jerusalem, etc. It wasn't until the Muslims overtook Jerusalem that Jews were allowed back in. I'd suggest learning some history before condemning people today for things that happened in the middle ages.

Steven Crowder did: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmdiqB_8l2k

Once again, you are paraphrasing or copying anti-Islamic propaganda. If you wish to educate yourself then study the discussions by accepted Islamic scholars on the authenticity of various Hadith and their application today, as well as the context around various Surah. For example, a 2 minute google search will reveal that Surah 9 deals primarily with God's commandments to Muslims to defend a nearby city from an onslaught from the Byzantines (Christians but allied with many Arab pagans in this area). It is not relevant outside that context. If you wish to find Surah that deal with religious tolerance they are easy to find. If you wish to continue to post anti-Islamic propaganda I can only hope you have misguided but pure intentions - you are a victim but also a participant.

The only "anti-Islamic propaganda" I need is to just listen to what Muslims say and watch what they do.

And it ain't good.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

I've studied Islam in depth (see below) and the Quran alone has at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter. Unlike nearly all of the Old Testament verses from the Bible on violence, the verses of violence in the Quran are mostly open-ended, meaning that they are not restrained by the historical context of the surrounding text. They are part of the eternal, unchanging word of Allah, and just as relevant or subjective as anything else in the Quran.

This is what makes the Quran's verses of violence so dangerous. They are given the weight of divine command. While Muslim terrorists take them as literally as anything else in their holy book, and understand that Islam is incomplete without Jihad, moderates offer little to contradict them - outside of opinion. Speaking of peace and love may win over the ignorant, but when every twelfth verse of Islam's holiest book either speaks to Allah's hatred for non-Muslims or calls for their death, forced conversion, or subjugation, it's little wonder that sympathy for terrorism runs as deeply as it does in the broader community - even if most Muslims personally prefer not to interpret their religion in this way.

The strangest and most untrue thing that can be said about Islam is that it is a Religion of Peace. If every standard by which the West is judged and condemned (slavery, imperialism, intolerance, misogyny, sexual repression, warfare...) were applied equally to Islam, the verdict would be devastating. Islam never gives up what it conquers, be it religion, culture, language or life. Neither does it make apologies or any real effort at moral progress. It is the least open to dialogue and the most self-absorbed. It is convinced of its own perfection, yet brutally shuns self-examination and represses criticism.

If someone were to read all the below verses from the Quran and still believe Islam is a religion of peace then they are choosing to ignore what Mohammed did while he was alive and his teachings.

Quran (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah." The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is thus disingenuous (the actual Muslim words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The actual Arabic comes from "fitna" which can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. Taken as a whole, the context makes clear that violence is being authorized until "religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle, as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. Here is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.

Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah's eyes. It also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Quran, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad and this is reflected in other translations of the verse).

Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..." Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense?

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.

Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah" Some translations interpret "fitna" as "persecution", but the traditional understanding of this word is not supported by the historical context (See notes for 2:293, also). The Meccans were simply refusing Muhammad access to their city during Haj. Other Muslims were allowed to travel there - just not as an armed group, since Muhammad had declared war on Mecca prior to his eviction. The Meccans were also acting in defense of their religion, since it was Muhammad's intention to destroy their idols and establish Islam by force (which he later did). Hence the critical part of this verse is to fight until "religion is only for Allah", meaning that the true justification of violence was the unbelief of the opposition. According to the Sira (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 324) Muhammad further explains that "Allah must have no rivals."

Quran (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Quran (8:65) - "O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight..."

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam. Prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religion's Five Pillars.

Quran (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."

Quran (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant." The "striving" spoken of here is Jihad (Arabic).

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." "People of the Book" refers to Christians and Jews. This was one of the final "revelations" from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad's companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths.

Quran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

Quran (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place." This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell.

Quran (9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew." See also the verse that follows (9:42) - "If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them" This contradicts the myth that Muslims are to fight only in self-defense, since the wording implies that battle will be waged a long distance from home (in another country and on Christian soil, in this case, according to the historians).

Quran (9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination." Dehumanizing those who reject Islam, by reminding Muslims that they are merely firewood for Hell, makes it easier to justify slaughter. It also explains why today's devout Muslims have little regard for those outside the faith.

Quran (9:88) - "But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper."

Quran (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Quran: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme."

Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

Quran (17:16) - "And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction." Note that the crime is moral transgression, and the punishment is "utter destruction." (Before ordering the 9/11 attacks, Osama bin Laden first issued Americans an invitation to Islam).

Quran (18:65-81) - This parable lays the theological groundwork for honor killings, in which a family member is murdered because they brought shame to the family, either through apostasy or perceived moral indiscretion. The story (which is not found in any Jewish or Christian source) tells of Moses encountering a man with "special knowledge" who does things which don't seem to make sense on the surface, but are then justified according to later explanation. One such action is to murder a youth for no apparent reason (74). However, the wise man later explains that it was feared that the boy would "grieve" his parents by "disobedience and ingratitude." He was killed so that Allah could provide them a 'better' son. (Note: This is one reason why honor killing is sanctioned by Sharia. Reliance of the Traveler (Umdat al-Saliq) says that punishment for murder is not applicable when a parent or grandparent kills their offspring (o.1.1-2).)

Quran (21:44) - "We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?"

Quran (25:52) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness..." "Strive against" is Jihad - obviously not in the personal context. It's also significant to point out that this is a Meccan verse.

Quran (33:60-62) - "If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbors in it but a little while. Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter." This passage sanctions the slaughter (rendered "merciless" and "horrible murder" in other translations) against three groups: Hypocrites (Muslims who refuse to "fight in the way of Allah" (3:167) and hence don't act as Muslims should), those with "diseased hearts" (which include Jews and Christians 5:51-52), and "alarmists" or "agitators who include those who merely speak out against Islam, according to Muhammad's biographers. It is worth noting that the victims are to be sought out by Muslims, which is what today's terrorists do. If this passage is meant merely to apply to the city of Medina, then it is unclear why it is included in Allah's eternal word to Muslim generations.

Quran (47:3-4) - "Those who reject Allah follow vanities, while those who believe follow the truth from their lord. Thus does Allah set forth form men their lessons by similitude. Therefore when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners," Those who reject Allah are to be subdued in battle. The verse goes on to say the only reason Allah doesn't do the dirty work himself is in order to to test the faithfulness of Muslims. Those who kill pass the test. "But if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost."

Quran (47:35) - "Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost (Shakir: "have the upper hand") for Allah is with you,"

Quran (48:17) - "There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom." Contemporary apologists sometimes claim that Jihad means 'spiritual struggle.' Is so, then why are the blind, lame and sick exempted? This verse also says that those who do not fight will suffer torment in hell.

Quran (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves" Islam is not about treating everyone equally. There are two very distinct standards that are applied based on religious status. Also the word used for 'hard' or 'ruthless' in this verse shares the same root as the word translated as 'painful' or severe' in verse 16.

Quran (61:4) - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way" Religion of Peace, indeed! This is followed by (61:9): "He it is who has sent His Messenger (Mohammed) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam) to make it victorious over all religions even though the infidels may resist."

Quran (61:10-12) - "O ye who believe! Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty?- That ye believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that ye strive (your utmost) in the Cause of Allah, with your property and your persons: That will be best for you, if ye but knew! He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Gardens of Eternity." This verse was given in battle. It uses the Arabic word, Jihad.

Quran (66:9) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end." The root word of "Jihad" is used again here. The context is clearly holy war, and the scope of violence is broadened to include "hypocrites" - those who call themselves Muslims but do not act as such.

There is alot of truth in that. About ten years ago there was a discussion about allowing Sharia law in Ontario for internal disputes within the Muslim community. There was a public outcry about it and the politicians did a 180 and shelved it. Mainly because it recognized it would disadvantage women.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

I can't believe that it's got to the point where western societies are prepared to sell out their own values and bend over backwards for other cultures out of fear of offending.

Seriously, if you're immigrating to another country but don't like the way they do things. Do not pass customs. Do not collect $200. Your community chest card says turn around, get back on the plane and piss off back to that wonderful place you were just trying to get the hell out of.

Honestly, the bleeding hearts that even consider permitting such acts should be sent over with them for six months. Enough with the dilution. And people wonder where these far right groups spring from.

That's a great point. The anti-Trumpers, which is what 9 out of 10 people that don't live in trailer parks, were pretty tough on Trump for (their perception) being insufficiently focused on the recent NAZI violence. So the media has been full of accusations against Trump for enabling neo NAZI groups and their ilk.

But imo, the kind of thing that really helps shithead groups, like the neo NAZIs, recruiting is the occasional bend over backwards efforts to accommodate foreign belief systems that are at odds with our own. The (far) rightwing press is constantly full of reports of schools honoring the Quran of having an Islamic day, or sending kids to a Mosque for a day, etc. Or a community discussing limited application of Sharia law in some cases, special accommodations to Islamics be reducing the trappings of this American custom or that. I've a couple old buddies that turned into rightwing whackjobs and they're constantly filling my fb feed with this sort of thing. I chase a lot of the stories down to see if there is any substance behind them and I find that a lot of it is complete tinybrain clickbait BS. But not all of it is BS.

Every time a Muslim is arrested for some terrorist act, the media and sometimes the government is slow to call it Islamic terrorism, and once they've no choice to do so, the over-arching message is "don't blame Muslims for the action of one lone man" and "it's so important that we don't blame the Islamic community".

Let some NAZI asshole walk into a danceclub and start shooting people tho, and the media would be pushing for vigilante action on anyone with a crewcut. Remember the guy last week that was knifed for having a NAZI haircut? This is because Muslim fundamentalists are really just victims, but NAZIs are the personification of evil because, well, everybody says so.

It's hard for me to imagine any potential neo-NAZI applicant getting stirred by Trump's words. But that story up above re. Ontario seriously discussing subordinating their own laws to Sharia law has got to be recruitment gold.

I feel obligated to point out that this post isn't intended to beat on Islamics. My point is solely about the elements of the status quo that aid radical rightwing recruitment. As long as folks treat each other well, I don't care what belief system they subscribe to.

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Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart

As long as folks treat each other well, I don't care what belief system they subscribe to.

The subscription should only extend as far that it adheres to the law and commonly held principles of the societies they have joined.

I can't think of any other group that is currently being afforded such dispensation / protection / promotion as the Muslim faith. As you have highlighted schools are introducing awareness activities, yet in the same breath I hear about symbols or reference to Christianity being stripped. I've not heard about awareness days for Hindus, Buddhists, Jews etc on the same scale. To be fair I don't know how accurate my observations are.

I wonder why this one group gets so much attention. Perhaps because they make so much noise and we live in fear of the repercussions. Is it simply western cowardice? On the other side of the world they must be sitting back laughing at us doing all their work for them.

I hate that I'm sounding like someone with far right traits, but it feels like Western cultures are dying a slow death. I guess I can but sit back and observe with interest how the seemingly conflicting ideals of equal rights (women / gays etc) gels with the ever expanding reach of Islam. I don't believe they can coexist.