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Re: USS John S. McCain Collides With Merchant Ship [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
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Sometimes humor helps, even if it's dark humor.

"Navy Destroyer Collides with Building in Downtown Houston."

"It was unclear why the destroyer was not able to see the building and take evasive action, or why it was over 20 miles inland and trying to navigate through a major metropolitan area."
Last edited by: trail: Aug 29, 17 20:56
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Re: USS John S. McCain Collides With Merchant Ship [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
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big kahuna wrote:
getcereal wrote:
big kahuna wrote:
The bodies of all 10 of the McCain's missing Sailors have been recovered:

Bodies of all 10 sailors missing on USS John S. McCain have been recovered - The Washington Post

The 10 sailors were identified as:
  • Electronics Technician 1st Class Charles Nathan Findley, 31, of Amazonia, Mo.;
  • Interior Communications Electrician 1st Class Abraham Lopez, 39, of El Paso;
  • Electronics Technician 2nd Class Kevin Sayer Bushell, 26, of Gaithersburg, Md.;
  • Electronics Technician 2nd Class Jacob Daniel Drake, 21, of Cable, Ohio;
  • Information Systems Technician 2nd Class Timothy Thomas Eckels Jr., 23, of Manchester, Md.;
  • Information Systems Technician 2nd Class Corey George Ingram, 28, of Poughkeepsie, N.Y.
  • Electronics Technician 3rd Class Dustin Louis Doyon, 26, of Suffield, Conn.
  • Electronics Technician 3rd Class John Henry Hoagland III, 20, of Killeen, Tex.
  • Interior Communications Electrician 3rd Class Logan Stephen Palmer, 23, of Decatur, Ill.
  • Electronics Technician 3rd Class, Kenneth Aaron Smith, 22, of Cherry Hill, N.J.





Wow! Average age around 26 so sad. We have to better, this is totally unexceptionable.
RIP fallen heroes.


It's a real tragedy. Simply horrible.

All ETs and ISs, too. I wonder if that was their berthing area that was hit or if it was their work space? Given the time of the morning, seems like it'd be their berthing area, but I'm no shipboard life expert, that's for sure.

My non working co-worker was an IC on the USS COLE, when he saw where the damage was done he said it was the ETs, ISs, and ICs lived.

All I Wanted Was A Pepsi, Just One Pepsi

Team Zoot, Team Zoot Mid-Atlantic

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Re: USS John S. McCain Collides With Merchant Ship [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
Sometimes humor helps, even if it's dark humor.

"Navy Destroyer Collides with Building in Downtown Houston."

"It was unclear why the destroyer was not able to see the building and take evasive action, or why it was over 20 miles inland and trying to navigate through a major metropolitan area."

My poor beloved Navy. ;-)

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."
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Re: USS John S. McCain Collides With Merchant Ship [Billabong] [ In reply to ]
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Question, not to you specifically but in general, why are all the similar trades bunking together? Or am I missing something?
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Re: USS John S. McCain Collides With Merchant Ship [racin_rusty] [ In reply to ]
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racin_rusty wrote:
Question, not to you specifically but in general, why are all the similar trades bunking together? Or am I missing something?

Couple of reasons, but mostly for accountability. It's easier to keep track of who is where when you berth with the people you work with. Also, the Division or Department will own maintenance and cleanliness of that berthing space, so it's easier to hold someone accountable for ensuring that stuff happens as well.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: USS John S. McCain Collides With Merchant Ship [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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So this is mostly for disciplinary reasons? Doesn't it seem risky to put each trade in a specific berthing area? 1 missile in wartime and 1/3rd or more of your specialized combat assets of 1 or 2 trades go poof.
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Re: USS John S. McCain Collides With Merchant Ship [racin_rusty] [ In reply to ]
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Operationally, it also simplifies swapping out work/watch shifts, when you can head down to wake up your relief and the different groups of guys can cycle on/off and work/eat/sleep together. If guys w/ different duties and working in different shops were sprinkled throughout the ship in various berthings, it'd be more chaotic having somebody in your berth trying to come on/off shift all the fucking time, as not all the different jobs and shops across the ship are synced together like that. Like if your DivO wants to call a meeting, you're all easy to find and organize, rather than having to track down 1 or 2 guys in each of 12 different berthings and disturb all of their other neighbors. Especially as guys within a given shop/berth often trade shifts with each other; gets back to slowguy's point about accountability knowing where your relief is coming from.
Last edited by: OneGoodLeg: Aug 30, 17 17:04
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Re: USS John S. McCain Collides With Merchant Ship [OneGoodLeg] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the clarification, my thought was that it would be easier to divide the berthings by watch. It's obvious my idea of what would be a good approach is equally or possibly even more flawed.
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Re: USS John S. McCain Collides With Merchant Ship [racin_rusty] [ In reply to ]
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racin_rusty wrote:
Thanks for the clarification, my thought was that it would be easier to divide the berthings by watch. It's obvious my idea of what would be a good approach is equally or possibly even more flawed.

Watch bills change often enough that you couldn't really separate it based on watch rotation.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: USS John S. McCain Collides With Merchant Ship [racin_rusty] [ In reply to ]
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racin_rusty wrote:
So this is mostly for disciplinary reasons? Doesn't it seem risky to put each trade in a specific berthing area? 1 missile in wartime and 1/3rd or more of your specialized combat assets of 1 or 2 trades go poof.

Typically, if we're really at war where there's significant risk of inbound missiles, there's not nearly as many people asleep in berthings. At any given time, about 1/3rd of the ship is on watch if you're operating where bad things could happen. If we're actually worried about inbound missiles, a ship has likely set General Quarters, then everyone is up on a GQ station, and nobody is asleep in berthings.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: USS John S. McCain Collides With Merchant Ship [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks, I was having trouble getting my head wrapped around how crew assets were protected.
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Re: USS John S. McCain Collides With Merchant Ship [racin_rusty] [ In reply to ]
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racin_rusty wrote:
Thanks, I was having trouble getting my head wrapped around how crew assets were protected.

Realistically, with regard to wartime and combat, protecting crew berthing is not a big priority.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: USS John S. McCain Collides With Merchant Ship [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
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http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/11/politics/navy-ships-training-expired/index.html. Ships involved in collisions had lengthy lists of failing to fulfill key training requirements. McCain blames it on taking the low hanging fruit in budget cuts

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: USS John S. McCain Collides With Merchant Ship [len] [ In reply to ]
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len wrote:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/11/politics/navy-ships-training-expired/index.html. Ships involved in collisions had lengthy lists of failing to fulfill key training requirements. McCain blames it on taking the low hanging fruit in budget cuts

Not super surprising, I don't think. As Sen McCain stated, the service chiefs have been ringing this bell for years. Many here in the LR laughed off the stated potential impact from cuts/reduced growth to DoD budgets. The stuff that gets cut is always the stuff with no lobbies, no politicians, no constituent industries standing by to put up a fuss, and that means it's always stuff that impacts Soldiers and Sailors.

We'll have to see what the final reports say. Lack of ballistic missile defense or anti-air certifications didn't contribute to these incidents, but the overall training and readiness environment, paired with increased operational responsibilities, likely did.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: USS John S. McCain Collides With Merchant Ship [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
len wrote:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/11/politics/navy-ships-training-expired/index.html. Ships involved in collisions had lengthy lists of failing to fulfill key training requirements. McCain blames it on taking the low hanging fruit in budget cuts


Not super surprising, I don't think. As Sen McCain stated, the service chiefs have been ringing this bell for years. Many here in the LR laughed off the stated potential impact from cuts/reduced growth to DoD budgets. The stuff that gets cut is always the stuff with no lobbies, no politicians, no constituent industries standing by to put up a fuss, and that means it's always stuff that impacts Soldiers and Sailors.

We'll have to see what the final reports say. Lack of ballistic missile defense or anti-air certifications didn't contribute to these incidents, but the overall training and readiness environment, paired with increased operational responsibilities, likely did.


In my time in the naval service, starting in the 1970s with the Carter-era Navy and running through to the early 21st century due to a recall to active duty for a time, travel and training and education ALWAYS took the hit first. For training and education, you tried to make do with local trainers -- who'd been (only imperfectly) trained in "train the trainer" classes -- first. You conducted what shipboard training you could and you hoped for the best. But the Navy over the decades has become increasingly technically oriented, so that sort of training only goes so far.

I was once an instructor at the Navy's Independent Duty Corpsman School ("Advanced Hospital Corps School" or AHCS), at the Navy School of Health Sciences in Portsmouth, VA. I saw firsthand how training for our IDCs on ships at the Naval Base Norfolk took the hit. Now multiply that by all the shipboard training and education that gets the "skinny it down" treatment, and then multiply that for something like the last decade or so.

Bottom line: training shortfalls were bound to happen. And look what trying to save a penny created? SMDH.

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."
Last edited by: big kahuna: Sep 11, 17 15:01
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Re: USS John S. McCain Collides With Merchant Ship [len] [ In reply to ]
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len wrote:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/11/politics/navy-ships-training-expired/index.html. Ships involved in collisions had lengthy lists of failing to fulfill key training requirements. McCain blames it on taking the low hanging fruit in budget cuts

Don't underestimate just how ridiculous military bureaucracy can be. Formal training reports are usually complete happy horseshit. Among a million other difficulties in trying to evaluate whether or not a group of folks know what they're doing, the military is obsessed by "process". So even tho your group might get the task done just fine, the fact that PVT Smith didn't have his helmet strap cinched tight and count down from 5 to 1 per the manual, could be enough to flunk your group.

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"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: USS John S. McCain Collides With Merchant Ship [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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RangerGress wrote:
len wrote:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/11/politics/navy-ships-training-expired/index.html. Ships involved in collisions had lengthy lists of failing to fulfill key training requirements. McCain blames it on taking the low hanging fruit in budget cuts


Don't underestimate just how ridiculous military bureaucracy can be. Formal training reports are usually complete happy horseshit. Among a million other difficulties in trying to evaluate whether or not a group of folks know what they're doing, the military is obsessed by "process". So even tho your group might get the task done just fine, the fact that PVT Smith didn't have his helmet strap cinched tight and count down from 5 to 1 per the manual, could be enough to flunk your group.

Apparently, the retired Navy Captain (O6) interviewed in this piece is very unsparing as to what went on:

“What gave out was leadership. The admirals did not put their careers on the line and object about anything. They rolled over to save themselves.”


Plus: “If you put the emphasis on social issues, you get a social force. If you put it on operational issues, you get an operational force. . . . The mistakes made were all simple things: basic ship handling, navigation and seamanship stuff. Destroyers do not get run down by merchants; they are faster and much more maneuverable. No, they were not hacked; they were not run down on purpose. They just were asleep at the wheel.”


The Real Reason the US Navy Keeps Hitting Merchant Vessels - In Military

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."
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Re: USS John S. McCain Collides With Merchant Ship [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
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big kahuna wrote:
RangerGress wrote:
len wrote:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/11/politics/navy-ships-training-expired/index.html. Ships involved in collisions had lengthy lists of failing to fulfill key training requirements. McCain blames it on taking the low hanging fruit in budget cuts


Don't underestimate just how ridiculous military bureaucracy can be. Formal training reports are usually complete happy horseshit. Among a million other difficulties in trying to evaluate whether or not a group of folks know what they're doing, the military is obsessed by "process". So even tho your group might get the task done just fine, the fact that PVT Smith didn't have his helmet strap cinched tight and count down from 5 to 1 per the manual, could be enough to flunk your group.


Apparently, the retired Navy Captain (O6) interviewed in this piece is very unsparing as to what went on:

“What gave out was leadership. The admirals did not put their careers on the line and object about anything. They rolled over to save themselves.”


Plus: “If you put the emphasis on social issues, you get a social force. If you put it on operational issues, you get an operational force. . . . The mistakes made were all simple things: basic ship handling, navigation and seamanship stuff. Destroyers do not get run down by merchants; they are faster and much more maneuverable. No, they were not hacked; they were not run down on purpose. They just were asleep at the wheel.”


The Real Reason the US Navy Keeps Hitting Merchant Vessels - In Military
I don't know anything about what happened in this specific event, nor do I know much about the climate aboard ships these days, or the McCain in particular. For all I know, the officers aboard the McCain might have been complete pieces of crap. That said, I'm sympathetic towards the officers and NCOs. With few exceptions, all the officers and NCOs I ever met tried pretty damned hard to do well. But they did so inside a system that tried very hard to defeat them at every turn. I spent a long time in the Marines and the Army, but the amount of really good training that I rec'd wasn't that much. I tried my ass off to put together "really good" training for my guys, but it was so goddamned hard to beat "the system" so I could do what I wanted that my successes were pretty damned rare. The military requires that the leaders do so much complete BS that it can consume their every waking hour. Year after year I worked 18hr days and I can't really say that I accomplished that much.

The military is 2nd only to the government as the biggest bureaucracy around. Bureaucracies are not good at getting anything useful done. Mostly they just suck the enthusiasm and moxie out of their members. Maybe the Navy keep running into other ships because what senior leaders want is pretty briefs re. the success of their elaborate processes, vs. hard chargers knowing what they are doing.

In my experience, In the military, the only training that is important is training that is easily rendered into a formal published standard, success easily measureable, and the results easily placed into a bullet comment. If the training and skills don't meet that criteria, then they don't matter. Try, for example, to measure a person's grasp of topographic lines, the key to genuinely being able to navigate thru terrain. Can't easily measure that, so it's long lost as a training objective. The ability to measure and report drives training.

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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