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Re: If you lived in Charlottesville, how many of you would have protested? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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I went here: splc link. I just totaled up the % of hate groups occupied by the factions I listed and noted that the 2015 number was less than the 2005 number. They've got a chart with 2005, 2010, and 2015 listed. That's the one I used. Of course, SPLC would never write an article with that spin to it -- not with Trump as President.

I don't think the data shows much either way. It all depends what year we pick and what we pick to count. And that makes sense. I don't see these hate groups benefiting from a national rethink. Maybe I'm missing it?
Last edited by: SH: Aug 20, 17 15:33
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Re: If you lived in Charlottesville, how many of you would have protested? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
SH wrote:
The percentage of white nationalist/neo nazi/kkk/skinhead/neo confederate hate groups has gone down over the last ten years (source southern poverty law center).

What's the SPLC source there? This SPLC articles documents an increase over the past two years using a variety of statistics. But you're right that there appear to have been more of a all-time peak around 2011 (thanks, Obama!), a drop since then, and a more recent uptick over the past two years.

I was trying to research this topic a few days ago, and it turns out it's apparently hard to get a legitimate estimate of the number of participants in hate groups. The hate groups themselves, e.g. KKK, don't report their membership numbers. Go figure. So the SPLC can only report the #'s of groups, not the membership. And most participation is online these days, so it's not like you can sneak into a Klan chapter meeting and do a headcount.

And there's the FBI statistics on hate crimes.

That's about it.

It is interesting that the SPLC reports that the number of anti-government "Patriot" groups has dropped while the number of white supremacy groups has risen. SPLC speculates that this is because the militant right-wingers as a whole are happier about the government, so are focusing on other agendas.

I call shenanigans that 2011 was an all time high unless they are excluding oh i don't know the entire 20th Century
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Re: If you lived in Charlottesville, how many of you would have protested? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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     SPLC is more than a little dubious in their estimations, so I'd go FBI for the win. As to numbers, it's actually heartening to see that they ended with the 3-500 in Charlottesville, given they had the July run-in and vowed to come back bigger and stronger, so probably worked hard to get their haters out. Hundreds too many, but I don't think it indicates America has a real racist hate problem, and still IMO keeps this size group in the "ignore" range.
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Re: If you lived in Charlottesville, how many of you would have protested? [dave_w] [ In reply to ]
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dave_w wrote:
SPLC is more than a little dubious in their estimations, so I'd go FBI for the win. As to numbers, it's actually heartening to see that they ended with the 3-500 in Charlottesville, given they had the July run-in and vowed to come back bigger and stronger, so probably worked hard to get their haters out. Hundreds too many, but I don't think it indicates America has a real racist hate problem, and still IMO keeps this size group in the "ignore" range.

There are about 315 million citizens in this country. There are bound to be a relatively small number who are racist, who are going to be racist and who will remain racist no matter what. Calling them out for mockery and derision is the way to go, not bashing their heads in with baseball bats. I realize communists and Nazis simply don't get along, but burning down the house in order to save it from a termite infestation rarely works.

"It is doubtful if the oppressed ever fight for freedom. They fight for pride and power — power to oppress others." Eric Hoffer

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."
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Re: If you lived in Charlottesville, how many of you would have protested? [rick_pcfl] [ In reply to ]
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rick_pcfl wrote:
You know what gets me. Radical islamists have killed more people than the nazis/white nationalists in the U.S in the last 10 years - and scores of thousands across the world - but we don't see anyone marching against their hate? What is pathetic, is that many of the same people marching against the nazis are the ones who defend the islamists.

To me, that tells me that they're marching based to make them feel good about themselves. Plus, it looks good to post on their facebook page.

You mean like this? People typically march against things that have happened recently and that seem to be the most pressing current issues.
There are marches like this in Europe relatively frequently, because it's more an issue there than here. The same way, there are very few marches against white supremacists in Europe, because although it exists, it's less a pressing problem...


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Re: If you lived in Charlottesville, how many of you would have protested? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
SH wrote:
The percentage of white nationalist/neo nazi/kkk/skinhead/neo confederate hate groups has gone down over the last ten years (source southern poverty law center).


What's the SPLC source there? This SPLC articles documents an increase over the past two years using a variety of statistics. But you're right that there appear to have been more of a all-time peak around 2011 (thanks, Obama!), a drop since then, and a more recent uptick over the past two years.

I was trying to research this topic a few days ago, and it turns out it's apparently hard to get a legitimate estimate of the number of participants in hate groups. The hate groups themselves, e.g. KKK, don't report their membership numbers. Go figure. So the SPLC can only report the #'s of groups, not the membership. And most participation is online these days, so it's not like you can sneak into a Klan chapter meeting and do a headcount.

And there's the FBI statistics on hate crimes.

That's about it.

It is interesting that the SPLC reports that the number of anti-government "Patriot" groups has dropped while the number of white supremacy groups has risen. SPLC speculates that this is because the militant right-wingers as a whole are happier about the government, so are focusing on other agendas.

The SPLC reports "statistics" that benefit their own agenda. Statistics that don't fit their agenda are not reported or are refuted. If you don't understand that the SPLC is just as biased as those it hates, then you have not been paying attention.
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