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Help with a Ironman Mt. Tremblant race plan
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Hello all, as you have undoubtedly figured out, I am competing in Ironman Tremblant this weekend and I could use your advice. I'm pretty sure I have a good sense of what works for me nutrition wise and that was tested in Muskoka this year. That race went well and I had a pretty solid run.

The Data:

Previous full ironman experience:

Swim: 1:12

I went off course a lot...otherwise given my fitness at the time, went fine.

Bike: 6:13:49

First half in 2:35, drank very little, do the math.

Run: 6:43:42

See above, do the math.


Nutrition: (I did this in Muskoka, except half)


Infinite nutrition for calories, pick up a second bottle in special needs, 3 hours per bottle. History suggests I will drink 3/4 of each.

Precision hydration 1000 effervescent. Start with a full between the arms bottle and one backup with hydration tablets in each. Get a bottle of water at each food station and fill my bta with the water and a hydration tablet. If I drink that plus an extra bottle or two from special needs, I should be alright. This was my strategy at muskoka.

I'll probably put a few gels I can stomach on my bike.


Dimensions:


6'2"
183-185 pounds
7-8% body fat (last test a month or two ago)



The Help:




Swim: This apparently has a self seeded start and I'm not really sure where to start. Lately I've been lucky enough to swim in the long course pool. My latest longer sets have gone as follows (LCM)

4 x 800 - in on 13:15 out on 14:30
2x1500 - in on 26:00 out on 28:00

Both were even splits and I wasn't very tired after. I'd love to take a crack at 1:04-1:06.


Bike: Given the below information, what power do you figure I should aim for? I"m thinking 185-190, but I'm open to convincing otherwise.



Important info: I use Golden Cheetah to deal with all my data and while I mainly bike inside, I did 4 or 5 very long bikes outside, with the longest coming in at 240km.

Muskoka: It was a 94km course with a reasonable amount of climbing, don't remember the number but people are aware of this one. I was through 90km at 2:45 on the nose. Average power: 209, Normalized power: 234.

on my 240km bike: I finished in under 8 hours with an average power of 172 and a normalized on 197.

My critical power according to golden cheetah is 271 and my most recent 20 minute test using the usual protocal was 280.



Run - this will largely depend on how the other things go and right now, my goal is to run at 5:10 - 5:15 per km. My last long run was 30km and I finished that at 4:55 per km and could've closed that pace out without very much trouble if I wanted to do a marathon. Does that seem reasonable?

5k: 19:30
10k: 39:50
half: 128:50
Full: 198:00 (haven't really done one in a while)




Special Needs:


Bike: replacement liquid nutrition, water
Run: Sandwich (PB and Banana), Orange crush

Dan Mayberry
Amateur a lot of things, professional a few things.
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Re: Help with a Ironman Mt. Tremblant race plan [drm437] [ In reply to ]
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What was the first IM race? looking at this data it seems to me that you went extremely hard on the bike and the wheels completely fell off on the run (total 14 hours and change i guess?).

Now this is coming from a one time finisher that will happen to also be on Tremblant on Sunday so for whatever is worth i think here there are far more people with far more experience to give you advice but here are my thoughts:

1. You should be able to swim around 1:10 or even less
2. Hold off at the beginning of the bike, take it easy
3. Special needs on the bike I would have a PB&J just as in the run.
4. Drink the whole damn bottle :), not 3/4, you are probably not drinking enough and is affecting the run.
5. You ran a 30K in 2:27 (4:55 per k), but looking at the previous IM run the pace is just way off, have you gotten that much better or is it that you're killing yourself in training and are getting overcooked?
6. Same for the bike, why a 240K ride?

Looks like your power target is good, what puzzles me is with your run numbers and holding probably good power numbers, what happened in the marathon? Maybe it all depends if your course was flat where you did 6:13 or hilly. My previous was IMLP and I think I came at 6:45 (after a 10 minute special need disaster delay where they lost my bag), so i should have been around 6:35. If your 6:13 was on a hilly course as well, maybe you put too much on your legs on the bike and that affected the run. I ran a 5:15 i believe off a 6:45 ride an a 1:17, plus some long transitions and came at 13:31.

All in all, with those numbers I would not be surprised if you break 13 (you definitely should be able to) provided that you're not coming overcooked, manage nutrition well and hold off on the bike.

Good luck!
Last edited by: rodchaves31: Aug 15, 17 19:45
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Re: Help with a Ironman Mt. Tremblant race plan [rodchaves31] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for taking the time! In an effort to explain the ironman run...

Regarding the run, last ironman was a nutritional disaster. I had 3 bottles of water the whole bike and I was way under calorically...and forget about salt. I had a great first lap on the bike and the first 45k of the second lap was good then the heat and lack of water, etc, screwed me. I coasted the last 45k. The second time up duplessis was a gong show and could barely stand up when I got off the bike. I had a good long transition and walked it out. That was not a fair representation of my run.

Incidentally I went under 5 hours on a half (all three disciplines, not just the run) a month later. (The last ironman was 2 years ago)

My run is usually my strongest part but I have spent less time on that this year (3/week - 30-50k average) in an effort to improve my bike endurance as my logic is the better I feel after I get off the bike the better chance I will run. My pace for the 30k was about 25 seconds/km slower than my last 30k race but I still wanted it to be fast enough to hurt a little bit near the end. I don't do this every run by any means.

I guess if you are looking at Semi-recent off the bike times:

Half - 1:46, 1:41
Olympic - 43, 43:50
Sprint - low 20s between 20:30-22


the 240k bike:

Simple, my cousin and I both turned 40 this year. 2 people turning 40...240. It was a good day aside from an injury to my cousin near the end.

BTW, If you are racing Sunday, have a great one!

Dan Mayberry
Amateur a lot of things, professional a few things.
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Re: Help with a Ironman Mt. Tremblant race plan [drm437] [ In reply to ]
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That explains it all. You should be fine and will probably come under 12. Good Luck on Sunday!
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Re: Help with a Ironman Mt. Tremblant race plan [rodchaves31] [ In reply to ]
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Do you train with power or heart rate?

Because it seems to me too, you went to hard on the bike.
Remember that you can easily account that the bike is just half of your race.

Remember to go as steady as possible and don't push on the climb.
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Re: Help with a Ironman Mt. Tremblant race plan [damianone] [ In reply to ]
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I train with heart rate and power but I only race with power. I think I tend to push too hard up hills, you are right, as I always have a giant spread in the average versus normalized power.

My problem is that I will see a small, for the sake of argument, 250 meter hill (in distance, not elevation) and think, "if I smoke this hill, I won't lose momentum". Then I will look at my power file after and see a 400-500 watt 30 second stretch.

A while back, I did a training camp at Tremblant where my whole goal was to climb the bigger hills at no more than 275. It was super tough mentally because im a hyper-competitive douchebag at times. I'm not fond of that aspect of my personality, to be honest and it's probably why I go too hard on the bike even when I know it's hot. Short story long, I hope it sticks because I did 3 straight long bikes and my legs were fine afterward. (Average power of those bikes were all in the 180-190 range)

So maybe back off 10 watts for the first 100-120 and see where I'm at? (And steady)

Dan Mayberry
Amateur a lot of things, professional a few things.
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Re: Help with a Ironman Mt. Tremblant race plan [drm437] [ In reply to ]
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Dan,

You've fallen into the trap of probably over-swimming, then over biking, and then when getting to the run ( from what I can see, an actual strength of yours), completely falling apart, and not being able to utilize that strength ob the run at all - in fact the run becomes a weakness!

You are not alone MANY modern triathletes are like this - OK swims - great bike splits - VERY slow run splits. This does present a great opportunity - with the vast majority of people falling apart on the run, if you run well, and strongly, all the way through the marathon at the end, you will improve your overall time substantially and your place-performance massively.

I always like Coach Gordo Byrn's advice. In absence of any other information and changes, keep cutting the effort on the swim/bike back until you can run the marathon run in an IM, fully, to the best of your abilities. Almost NO ONE is doing this these days ( again - this is were there is tremendous opportunity). With what I see here, you should be able to possibly run a bit under 4 hrs for the marathon in an IM. Make THAT your goal on race day, even if it means turning the bike into a bit a joke and a tour around the course. Just try it. After the big blow-up the last time, you have nothing to lose!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Help with a Ironman Mt. Tremblant race plan [drm437] [ In reply to ]
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drm437 wrote:
I train with heart rate and power but I only race with power. I think I tend to push too hard up hills, you are right, as I always have a giant spread in the average versus normalized power.

My problem is that I will see a small, for the sake of argument, 250 meter hill (in distance, not elevation) and think, "if I smoke this hill, I won't lose momentum". Then I will look at my power file after and see a 400-500 watt 30 second stretch.

A while back, I did a training camp at Tremblant where my whole goal was to climb the bigger hills at no more than 275. It was super tough mentally because im a hyper-competitive douchebag at times. I'm not fond of that aspect of my personality, to be honest and it's probably why I go too hard on the bike even when I know it's hot. Short story long, I hope it sticks because I did 3 straight long bikes and my legs were fine afterward. (Average power of those bikes were all in the 180-190 range)

So maybe back off 10 watts for the first 100-120 and see where I'm at? (And steady)

Racing an IM is all about pacing and being smart. Doing stupid things while racing will bite you in the ass.

Swim like you swim.

Bike completely steady. If everyone is passing you on the uphills and you pass them on the downhills then you are doing it right. If your goal power is 180 for the race you shouldn't be hitting huge power numbers to get up the hills. Yes, you can spike your power a bit (240-80 watts for very brief stretches) but if you are seeing a 400 to 500 watt spike then you are just sabotaging yourself. Don't be stupid. Really. The 5-10 minutes you gain on the bike will be more than offset by the 1-3 hours you lose on the run because you trashed your legs.

Run steady. It will feel so good to get off the bike and there is a tendency to run the first 10K too hard. Don't do that. In fact, slow down and run 5-10 seconds per K slower than your projected pace. There are plenty of miles to make this up in the second half if your legs feel good. A six hour death march is a miserable way to finish a race.

I go with a 100% liquid nutrition plan when racing.... but I have practiced and trained this for years. I shoot for 4-6 calories/kg/hour while on the bike (I mix up my nutrition in bottles so that if I drink a bottle every 1:15 then I am getting my goal nutrition--four bottles for the race, two on the bike when I start and two in special needs/half way point). I try to take in 1-3 calories/kg/hour while running. Drink water to supplement so that I have to pee a couple times on the bike and a couple times on the run.

I always read Endurance Nation's, Four (Five?) keys to racing an IM before every long course race. Google it. It will give you great perspective on the mental discipline/restraint required to race an IM well.

----------------------------
Jason
None of the secrets of success will work unless you do.
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Re: Help with a Ironman Mt. Tremblant race plan [drm437] [ In reply to ]
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I too have fallen into the trap, several times, of pushing too hard on the bike.
Looking at my power file from IMMT last August, I can also see on that Lac Superior hill section, there were several times where I went well over 350 watts dragging my 180 pounds up the short steep rises, and that was with a 34/28 gear. I have a 32 on the back for this coming weekend, just for those hills.
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Re: Help with a Ironman Mt. Tremblant race plan [drm437] [ In reply to ]
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drm437 wrote:
I train with heart rate and power but I only race with power. I think I tend to push too hard up hills, you are right, as I always have a giant spread in the average versus normalized power.

My problem is that I will see a small, for the sake of argument, 250 meter hill (in distance, not elevation) and think, "if I smoke this hill, I won't lose momentum". Then I will look at my power file after and see a 400-500 watt 30 second stretch.

A while back, I did a training camp at Tremblant where my whole goal was to climb the bigger hills at no more than 275. It was super tough mentally because im a hyper-competitive douchebag at times. I'm not fond of that aspect of my personality, to be honest and it's probably why I go too hard on the bike even when I know it's hot. Short story long, I hope it sticks because I did 3 straight long bikes and my legs were fine afterward. (Average power of those bikes were all in the 180-190 range)

So maybe back off 10 watts for the first 100-120 and see where I'm at? (And steady)


OK. if you have a powermeter things are a lot easier. It would be the only thing you focus on during your race.

For the swimm, go as fast as you can knowing you would not overdo it. In practice, try to get out of water with some energy left.

Say you have a FTP of 270 watt. As you said you never run a good marathon in an Ironman, so I would choose the most conservative strategy on the bike averaging around 180 watt normalized, this is a 66% of you FTP. It means that you keep 180 watt on flat, and you usually increase power for any given slope, with a maximum of 240 watt over 6%. There are lot of hills at Montremblat, so pace yourself carefully.
At the end you would have no more than 250tss. With a 190 NP you would end up with ~300tss, and you would never be able to run the marathon well.
I usually keep my garmin with a 10s average power and the slope under my nose, so I can adjust power according to the % of the slope.
I also have another screen with the normalized power, I start to check it after 30/40 km to verify that i'm pacing right. Another things I keep under my eye is the tss, if after 45km, or 60 or 90 I'm above what I'm supposed to do I slow down, because otherwise I will blow up in the run, or at least not i'll not be able to run well. But if the average power is right, the tss would also be right. Do it as your like would depend on it.
A last thing, do yourself a cheat sheet, where you just write the slope and the power and stick it on the stem.
My is like 0% 180watt, 1-2% 200watt, 2-4% 220watt, 4-6% 230, >6% 240watt.

The run is where you prove to have done everything good. If you have done the bike in the right way, you will still have many energy. Now, everybody slow down during the marathon, with the majority ending up walking. This because of a poor bike pacing, but even because people tend to run 10/20s faster than they can. There is no way you can run 20km 10s faster per km, and then still run on the second half. So pace yourself according to your potential and run as steady as possible. I hope you trained you IM pace enought :D

Last, but not least: nutrition is the main problem/cause of walking or DNS in ironman. You simply don't have enough energy stored in you body finish an IM, what you eat and drink is necessary. So if you miss it, you never achieve your potential. Eat and drink (drink is better), as you are used to do in long training sessions.
Remember, if you stomach give you some trouble, slow down, a go easy until your stomach feel better. You would not loose many time, but you will save for sure lot time later.

EDIT: all my consideration are good only you trained the bike AND the run. If you are not trained enough on the run, try a 170NP on the bike. I can guarantee that you total time would be a lot better if you could manage to run the marathon, instead of walking. Don't bother you with people passing you on the bike, you would catch 90% of them on the run.

Good luck
Last edited by: damianone: Aug 16, 17 9:37
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Re: Help with a Ironman Mt. Tremblant race plan [damianone] [ In reply to ]
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All extremely helpful everyone, thanks for your time!

I certainly didn't train at my run pace exclusively but I did try to every couple weeks. Incidentally, the pace I picked was based on a calculator I found online (it was specific to triathlon. Can't find it now). 5:10-5:15 seems manageable so provided I'm smart and actually listen to you all in the other two areas. I'm already planning on walking every aid station right from go so realistically I'm running a few seconds faster.

As far as adding TSS to my device, I'll have to see if I can. I have a Wahoo ELEMNT so I think I can. I'll put that and normalized at the bottom.

You guys also have me convinced I should back off on the swim. My issue is I can't swim too slowly or my form goes to hell so I do need some effort. I am definitely going to go for the lower end of my goal. In a 50m pool 145/100 really feels right. I'm gonna get a few swims in when I get to MT.

Love the cheat sheet idea. My computer even has slope!

Dan Mayberry
Amateur a lot of things, professional a few things.
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Re: Help with a Ironman Mt. Tremblant race plan [drm437] [ In reply to ]
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I did Tremblant two years ago. My FTP at the time was 275 so close... I weighed 70-71kg on race day.

Here's my advice. Forget about swim and bike, you have to run a strong marathon. you're not sacrificing anything with a conservative swim and bike. you're a decent runner, prove that you can run a strong IM marathon. you will have a fast race time if you can run at your ability.

- swim should feel comfortable, you should not feel like it's hard at any point; if you feel like you can't catch your breath slow down; in the grand schema of the race the swim doesn't matter; swimming harder than what you're capable of will probably net you less than a minute or two but will translate in a huge blowup on the run.

- nutrition: how many calories in that infinit bottle? if it's a concentrated solution make sure you drink water with every sip of infinit. make sure you eat everything, especially when you feel good; I aim for 350 cals / hour. if it's hot like it was in 2015 drink and drink some more - once you're on the run it's too late.

- bike: I averaged 191 NP that day for a 5:20 split; at no point I was pushing more than 235W except for some short sections on Duplessis where you have no choice. even with a 34/28 you still have to push considerably more. don't panic and try to hold whatever you think your preferred cadence is - it will lead to huge spikes; push your watts even if you have to grind it a little bit, no reason to get out of the saddle just stay on your watts. anticipate big hills and shift in the small ring at the right time and smoothly to avoid dropped chains.

- run: start EASY!!!! just image you're going out for a sunday long run; would you smoke the first 3 mi normally? probably not. set an HR cap and stick to it, after mile 18-20 it will get hard hard hard, save everything for that last 10k.

Good luck!

drm437 wrote:
Hello all, as you have undoubtedly figured out, I am competing in Ironman Tremblant this weekend and I could use your advice. I'm pretty sure I have a good sense of what works for me nutrition wise and that was tested in Muskoka this year. That race went well and I had a pretty solid run.
The Data:

Previous full ironman experience:

Swim: 1:12

I went off course a lot...otherwise given my fitness at the time, went fine.

Bike: 6:13:49

First half in 2:35, drank very little, do the math.

Run: 6:43:42

See above, do the math.


Nutrition: (I did this in Muskoka, except half)


Infinite nutrition for calories, pick up a second bottle in special needs, 3 hours per bottle. History suggests I will drink 3/4 of each.

Precision hydration 1000 effervescent. Start with a full between the arms bottle and one backup with hydration tablets in each. Get a bottle of water at each food station and fill my bta with the water and a hydration tablet. If I drink that plus an extra bottle or two from special needs, I should be alright. This was my strategy at muskoka.

I'll probably put a few gels I can stomach on my bike.


Dimensions:


6'2"
183-185 pounds
7-8% body fat (last test a month or two ago)



The Help:




Swim: This apparently has a self seeded start and I'm not really sure where to start. Lately I've been lucky enough to swim in the long course pool. My latest longer sets have gone as follows (LCM)

4 x 800 - in on 13:15 out on 14:30
2x1500 - in on 26:00 out on 28:00

Both were even splits and I wasn't very tired after. I'd love to take a crack at 1:04-1:06.


Bike: Given the below information, what power do you figure I should aim for? I"m thinking 185-190, but I'm open to convincing otherwise.



Important info: I use Golden Cheetah to deal with all my data and while I mainly bike inside, I did 4 or 5 very long bikes outside, with the longest coming in at 240km.

Muskoka: It was a 94km course with a reasonable amount of climbing, don't remember the number but people are aware of this one. I was through 90km at 2:45 on the nose. Average power: 209, Normalized power: 234.

on my 240km bike: I finished in under 8 hours with an average power of 172 and a normalized on 197.

My critical power according to golden cheetah is 271 and my most recent 20 minute test using the usual protocal was 280.



Run - this will largely depend on how the other things go and right now, my goal is to run at 5:10 - 5:15 per km. My last long run was 30km and I finished that at 4:55 per km and could've closed that pace out without very much trouble if I wanted to do a marathon. Does that seem reasonable?

5k: 19:30
10k: 39:50
half: 128:50
Full: 198:00 (haven't really done one in a while)




Special Needs:


Bike: replacement liquid nutrition, water
Run: Sandwich (PB and Banana), Orange crush
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Re: Help with a Ironman Mt. Tremblant race plan [damianone] [ In reply to ]
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damianone wrote:
drm437 wrote:
I train with heart rate and power but I only race with power. I think I tend to push too hard up hills, you are right, as I always have a giant spread in the average versus normalized power.

My problem is that I will see a small, for the sake of argument, 250 meter hill (in distance, not elevation) and think, "if I smoke this hill, I won't lose momentum". Then I will look at my power file after and see a 400-500 watt 30 second stretch.

A while back, I did a training camp at Tremblant where my whole goal was to climb the bigger hills at no more than 275. It was super tough mentally because im a hyper-competitive douchebag at times. I'm not fond of that aspect of my personality, to be honest and it's probably why I go too hard on the bike even when I know it's hot. Short story long, I hope it sticks because I did 3 straight long bikes and my legs were fine afterward. (Average power of those bikes were all in the 180-190 range)

So maybe back off 10 watts for the first 100-120 and see where I'm at? (And steady)


OK. if you have a powermeter things are a lot easier. It would be the only thing you focus on during your race.

For the swimm, go as fast as you can knowing you would not overdo it. In practice, try to get out of water with some energy left.

Say you have a FTP of 270 watt. As you said you never run a good marathon in an Ironman, so I would choose the most conservative strategy on the bike averaging around 180 watt normalized, this is a 66% of you FTP. It means that you keep 180 watt on flat, and you usually increase power for any given slope, with a maximum of 240 watt over 6%. There are lot of hills at Montremblat, so pace yourself carefully.
At the end you would have no more than 250tss. With a 190 NP you would end up with ~300tss, and you would never be able to run the marathon well.
I usually keep my garmin with a 10s average power and the slope under my nose, so I can adjust power according to the % of the slope.
I also have another screen with the normalized power, I start to check it after 30/40 km to verify that i'm pacing right. Another things I keep under my eye is the tss, if after 45km, or 60 or 90 I'm above what I'm supposed to do I slow down, because otherwise I will blow up in the run, or at least not i'll not be able to run well. But if the average power is right, the tss would also be right. Do it as your like would depend on it.
A last thing, do yourself a cheat sheet, where you just write the slope and the power and stick it on the stem.
My is like 0% 180watt, 1-2% 200watt, 2-4% 220watt, 4-6% 230, >6% 240watt.

The run is where you prove to have done everything good. If you have done the bike in the right way, you will still have many energy. Now, everybody slow down during the marathon, with the majority ending up walking. This because of a poor bike pacing, but even because people tend to run 10/20s faster than they can. There is no way you can run 20km 10s faster per km, and then still run on the second half. So pace yourself according to your potential and run as steady as possible. I hope you trained you IM pace enought :D

Last, but not least: nutrition is the main problem/cause of walking or DNS in ironman. You simply don't have enough energy stored in you body finish an IM, what you eat and drink is necessary. So if you miss it, you never achieve your potential. Eat and drink (drink is better), as you are used to do in long training sessions.
Remember, if you stomach give you some trouble, slow down, a go easy until your stomach feel better. You would not loose many time, but you will save for sure lot time later.

EDIT: all my consideration are good only you trained the bike AND the run. If you are not trained enough on the run, try a 170NP on the bike. I can guarantee that you total time would be a lot better if you could manage to run the marathon, instead of walking. Don't bother you with people passing you on the bike, you would catch 90% of them on the run.

Good luck

some good advice given in this post..... and as i like to remind people... 99% of nutritional issue at ironman are PACING issue. nutrition at ironman is simple.

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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Re: Help with a Ironman Mt. Tremblant race plan [sp1ke] [ In reply to ]
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I wish I had a 34/28. Too late in the game now, I'm afraid.

Just reminded me...my first trip to MT I only had 11/25 which was brutal. I have a bigger cog now. I did some mountains in Majorca in the spring and had a 28 on the back I could do most of those at 240 or so and if memory serves, the bigger ones averaged 7-7.5%. I'm hoping that translates. I know I'll be pushing 300 or more up Duplessis but those sections are pretty short generally.

Thanks for pointing out the cadence thing. If I go below 85 for too long it burns out my legs faster. I might be stating the obvious to some, but not to me.

nutrition: My bottle will have around 1000 calories so I'll need 2. I might top that up with a gel every 90 minutes or so. That's around what I did in Muskoka and I had a good run for me. I am careful with water, I have a schedule this year.

All of this is what I need to hear. In shorter races, even Olympic, I can put together a very reasonable bike split, which usually carries me to a very good result. I tried the last Ironman with the same attitude and you all know the result. It's tough to break out of that mindset , but I'm trying!

Dan Mayberry
Amateur a lot of things, professional a few things.
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Re: Help with a Ironman Mt. Tremblant race plan [drm437] [ In reply to ]
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drm437 wrote:


As far as adding TSS to my device, I'll have to see if I can. I have a Wahoo ELEMNT so I think I can. I'll put that and normalized at the bottom.


If you have such a device just do a power plan with best bike split. It would help you so much. Your device would tell exactly how many watt to hold for each meter of your bike.
Last edited by: damianone: Aug 16, 17 11:34
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Re: Help with a Ironman Mt. Tremblant race plan [sp1ke] [ In reply to ]
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- run: start EASY!!!! just image you're going out for a sunday long run; would you smoke the first 3 mi normally? probably not. set an HR cap and stick to it, after mile 18-20 it will get hard hard hard, save everything for that last 10k.


Many deep-six their IM runs in the first 5 - 10K, by running too fast.

- They are happy to get off the bike

- The crowds are HUGE and cheering you on out of T2

- The fatigue in your legs/body tends to blunt the normal sense of Perceived Exertion

All the above adds up to running too fast early on in an IM Marathon. Don't! Take your time out of T2. See how you feel. Don't get carried away with the crowds, and the emotion. If it feels like you are running partly with the brake on, that's the right feeling.

When I was in my final IM race prep, I would finish up 4 - 5 hour harder rides at a local running track, and do my brick-run off the bike right on the track. This way, I would know EXACTLY what my goal IM run pace felt like and no faster.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Help with a Ironman Mt. Tremblant race plan [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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jonnyo wrote:
damianone wrote:
drm437 wrote:
I train with heart rate and power but I only race with power. I think I tend to push too hard up hills, you are right, as I always have a giant spread in the average versus normalized power.

My problem is that I will see a small, for the sake of argument, 250 meter hill (in distance, not elevation) and think, "if I smoke this hill, I won't lose momentum". Then I will look at my power file after and see a 400-500 watt 30 second stretch.

A while back, I did a training camp at Tremblant where my whole goal was to climb the bigger hills at no more than 275. It was super tough mentally because im a hyper-competitive douchebag at times. I'm not fond of that aspect of my personality, to be honest and it's probably why I go too hard on the bike even when I know it's hot. Short story long, I hope it sticks because I did 3 straight long bikes and my legs were fine afterward. (Average power of those bikes were all in the 180-190 range)

So maybe back off 10 watts for the first 100-120 and see where I'm at? (And steady)


OK. if you have a powermeter things are a lot easier. It would be the only thing you focus on during your race.

For the swimm, go as fast as you can knowing you would not overdo it. In practice, try to get out of water with some energy left.

Say you have a FTP of 270 watt. As you said you never run a good marathon in an Ironman, so I would choose the most conservative strategy on the bike averaging around 180 watt normalized, this is a 66% of you FTP. It means that you keep 180 watt on flat, and you usually increase power for any given slope, with a maximum of 240 watt over 6%. There are lot of hills at Montremblat, so pace yourself carefully.
At the end you would have no more than 250tss. With a 190 NP you would end up with ~300tss, and you would never be able to run the marathon well.
I usually keep my garmin with a 10s average power and the slope under my nose, so I can adjust power according to the % of the slope.
I also have another screen with the normalized power, I start to check it after 30/40 km to verify that i'm pacing right. Another things I keep under my eye is the tss, if after 45km, or 60 or 90 I'm above what I'm supposed to do I slow down, because otherwise I will blow up in the run, or at least not i'll not be able to run well. But if the average power is right, the tss would also be right. Do it as your like would depend on it.
A last thing, do yourself a cheat sheet, where you just write the slope and the power and stick it on the stem.
My is like 0% 180watt, 1-2% 200watt, 2-4% 220watt, 4-6% 230, >6% 240watt.

The run is where you prove to have done everything good. If you have done the bike in the right way, you will still have many energy. Now, everybody slow down during the marathon, with the majority ending up walking. This because of a poor bike pacing, but even because people tend to run 10/20s faster than they can. There is no way you can run 20km 10s faster per km, and then still run on the second half. So pace yourself according to your potential and run as steady as possible. I hope you trained you IM pace enought :D

Last, but not least: nutrition is the main problem/cause of walking or DNS in ironman. You simply don't have enough energy stored in you body finish an IM, what you eat and drink is necessary. So if you miss it, you never achieve your potential. Eat and drink (drink is better), as you are used to do in long training sessions.
Remember, if you stomach give you some trouble, slow down, a go easy until your stomach feel better. You would not loose many time, but you will save for sure lot time later.

EDIT: all my consideration are good only you trained the bike AND the run. If you are not trained enough on the run, try a 170NP on the bike. I can guarantee that you total time would be a lot better if you could manage to run the marathon, instead of walking. Don't bother you with people passing you on the bike, you would catch 90% of them on the run.

Good luck


some good advice given in this post..... and as i like to remind people... 99% of nutritional issue at ironman are PACING issue. nutrition at ironman is simple.

To add to what Jonnyo said about pacing. We can all digest thanksgiving turkey while sitting around and probably walking, but we can't do it running. You need to dial down the pacing so you can digest around 3000 calories over the day. It's really that simple. How slow do you have to go, that is personal. Jonnyo gave me the advice once about stopping in the middle of my long ride and having a large subway sub with bacon, cheese, mayo, hot peppers and 1 liter of coke. It's kind of funny, but I had already done it when I was young before tri on many bike course (pizza, full meals, etc etc). Basically you get forced to slow down the pace to digest this, but finally once you absorb, it, your training partners who just had a few gels are toast. When the turbo-subway nutrition kicks in, everyone is hanging on for dear life. During the IM, that's basically what you need to virtually do on the bike to set up the run. It's 1000 percent pacing and nothing else.
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Re: Help with a Ironman Mt. Tremblant race plan [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
jonnyo wrote:
damianone wrote:
drm437 wrote:
I train with heart rate and power but I only race with power. I think I tend to push too hard up hills, you are right, as I always have a giant spread in the average versus normalized power.

My problem is that I will see a small, for the sake of argument, 250 meter hill (in distance, not elevation) and think, "if I smoke this hill, I won't lose momentum". Then I will look at my power file after and see a 400-500 watt 30 second stretch.

A while back, I did a training camp at Tremblant where my whole goal was to climb the bigger hills at no more than 275. It was super tough mentally because im a hyper-competitive douchebag at times. I'm not fond of that aspect of my personality, to be honest and it's probably why I go too hard on the bike even when I know it's hot. Short story long, I hope it sticks because I did 3 straight long bikes and my legs were fine afterward. (Average power of those bikes were all in the 180-190 range)

So maybe back off 10 watts for the first 100-120 and see where I'm at? (And steady)


OK. if you have a powermeter things are a lot easier. It would be the only thing you focus on during your race.

For the swimm, go as fast as you can knowing you would not overdo it. In practice, try to get out of water with some energy left.

Say you have a FTP of 270 watt. As you said you never run a good marathon in an Ironman, so I would choose the most conservative strategy on the bike averaging around 180 watt normalized, this is a 66% of you FTP. It means that you keep 180 watt on flat, and you usually increase power for any given slope, with a maximum of 240 watt over 6%. There are lot of hills at Montremblat, so pace yourself carefully.
At the end you would have no more than 250tss. With a 190 NP you would end up with ~300tss, and you would never be able to run the marathon well.
I usually keep my garmin with a 10s average power and the slope under my nose, so I can adjust power according to the % of the slope.
I also have another screen with the normalized power, I start to check it after 30/40 km to verify that i'm pacing right. Another things I keep under my eye is the tss, if after 45km, or 60 or 90 I'm above what I'm supposed to do I slow down, because otherwise I will blow up in the run, or at least not i'll not be able to run well. But if the average power is right, the tss would also be right. Do it as your like would depend on it.
A last thing, do yourself a cheat sheet, where you just write the slope and the power and stick it on the stem.
My is like 0% 180watt, 1-2% 200watt, 2-4% 220watt, 4-6% 230, >6% 240watt.

The run is where you prove to have done everything good. If you have done the bike in the right way, you will still have many energy. Now, everybody slow down during the marathon, with the majority ending up walking. This because of a poor bike pacing, but even because people tend to run 10/20s faster than they can. There is no way you can run 20km 10s faster per km, and then still run on the second half. So pace yourself according to your potential and run as steady as possible. I hope you trained you IM pace enought :D

Last, but not least: nutrition is the main problem/cause of walking or DNS in ironman. You simply don't have enough energy stored in you body finish an IM, what you eat and drink is necessary. So if you miss it, you never achieve your potential. Eat and drink (drink is better), as you are used to do in long training sessions.
Remember, if you stomach give you some trouble, slow down, a go easy until your stomach feel better. You would not loose many time, but you will save for sure lot time later.

EDIT: all my consideration are good only you trained the bike AND the run. If you are not trained enough on the run, try a 170NP on the bike. I can guarantee that you total time would be a lot better if you could manage to run the marathon, instead of walking. Don't bother you with people passing you on the bike, you would catch 90% of them on the run.

Good luck


some good advice given in this post..... and as i like to remind people... 99% of nutritional issue at ironman are PACING issue. nutrition at ironman is simple.

To add to what Jonnyo said about pacing. We can all digest thanksgiving turkey while sitting around and probably walking, but we can't do it running. You need to dial down the pacing so you can digest around 3000 calories over the day. It's really that simple. How slow do you have to go, that is personal. Jonnyo gave me the advice once about stopping in the middle of my long ride and having a large subway sub with bacon, cheese, mayo, hot peppers and 1 liter of coke. It's kind of funny, but I had already done it when I was young before tri on many bike course (pizza, full meals, etc etc). Basically you get forced to slow down the pace to digest this, but finally once you absorb, it, your training partners who just had a few gels are toast. When the turbo-subway nutrition kicks in, everyone is hanging on for dear life. During the IM, that's basically what you need to virtually do on the bike to set up the run. It's 1000 percent pacing and nothing else.

I like that. I'm going to add some food to both special needs. I was only gonna have a pb and banana sandwich and a bottle of probably crush on one of the two needs stations, but I may do it on both, switching up the food.

Dan Mayberry
Amateur a lot of things, professional a few things.
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Re: Help with a Ironman Mt. Tremblant race plan [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck wrote:
- run: start EASY!!!! just image you're going out for a sunday long run; would you smoke the first 3 mi normally? probably not. set an HR cap and stick to it, after mile 18-20 it will get hard hard hard, save everything for that last 10k.


Many deep-six their IM runs in the first 5 - 10K, by running too fast.

- They are happy to get off the bike

- The crowds are HUGE and cheering you on out of T2

- The fatigue in your legs/body tends to blunt the normal sense of Perceived Exertion

All the above adds up to running too fast early on in an IM Marathon. Don't! Take your time out of T2. See how you feel. Don't get carried away with the crowds, and the emotion. If it feels like you are running partly with the brake on, that's the right feeling.

When I was in my final IM race prep, I would finish up 4 - 5 hour harder rides at a local running track, and do my brick-run off the bike right on the track. This way, I would know EXACTLY what my goal IM run pace felt like and no faster.

Thanks for the response.

I'm a sucker for problems ilike this, so it's good to be reminded of.

Muskoka this year wasn't really an issue mainly because it was a long training day for me so I wasn't as amped as I normally am during a race. Maybe I should try this attitude on Sunday.

Dan Mayberry
Amateur a lot of things, professional a few things.
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