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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [gregtryin] [ In reply to ]
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Not a typo. I am a bad writer. Let me put it this way. We can't make fun of retarded babies so does that mean retarded babies rule us?
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
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Tibbsy wrote:
Not a typo. I am a bad writer. Let me put it this way. We can't make fun of retarded babies so does that mean retarded babies rule us?
In order to criticize the quote, you're removing all context. The right context is power structures, cultural, religious, government, etc. For cultural issues, think our various current 3rd rails....racism, sexism, gender identity, sexual preferences, man made global warming...there's all sorts of good examples that will get a person shouted down.

When I read the quote, thinking that it was Voltaire, I assumed that the context was pre-revolution France so directed at any number of the power-blocs of that time.

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [trail] [ In reply to ]
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Not sure why "science" is in quotes. From what I can tell his statements are backed up by science. There appears to be a side here that is the decidedly anti science but it isn't coming from James...


Below is link to an interview with Dr Jordan Peterson and James Damore. It starts slow but think once they get into talking about his actual document its informative. Worth a listen in my opinion. you can skip to the about the 24 min mark if you want to skip ahead to that part. first part of the interview is just some background on who his is, his educational background, how came to work for google, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEDuVF7kiPU
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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It is a terrible quote because it is just to broad to have meaning. I mean I own you because I am sure there is something you will criticize that will piss me off and you to me. It's just a cowardly statement, "If anyone holds me responsible for what I say then they are making me unfree and are poopy heads! "
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Re: "Voltaire- To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [getcereal] [ In reply to ]
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What's all this hubris about? Jimmy the Greek.
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
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Tibbsy wrote:
It is a terrible quote because it is just to broad to have meaning. I mean I own you because I am sure there is something you will criticize that will piss me off and you to me. It's just a cowardly statement, "If anyone holds me responsible for what I say then they are making me unfree and are poopy heads! "

We've got a disconnect. You are talking about the quote in the context of Google punishing. I'm talking about the quote in the context of culture, religion, government, etc doing the punishing.

Of course the quote has little value if applied to your employer. But that's not "ruling over you", that's a 2 party agreement for services and remuneration which can be terminated by either side at will.

Our culture has created sacred cows, ideas that are not to be criticized. It was our culture that punished the guy. Google was just the middleman.

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
Last edited by: RangerGress: Aug 9, 17 10:33
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [getcereal] [ In reply to ]
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getcereal wrote:
As Thomas Jefferson once said, “Never trust quotes you find on the internet."

Bravo, Sir. Way to roll w/ it after taking the initial hit...
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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The quote is awful. Again it is so broad as to not have meaning. Quote me on this, The sun comes up in the morning and down in the evening.
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [OneGoodLeg] [ In reply to ]
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OneGoodLeg wrote:
getcereal wrote:
As Thomas Jefferson once said, “Never trust quotes you find on the internet."


Bravo, Sir. Way to roll w/ it after taking the initial hit...

Haha! Thanks, I also fixed the original title so now it's accurate :-)
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Re: "Voltaire- To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [getcereal] [ In reply to ]
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"Given the facts and the gender breakdown at Google. One of two things must be true. Either Google massive company wide effort to diversify and hire more women have failed and the company's loving diversity team is in fact sexist keeping women disproportional out of most jobs of the company. Or Demore is on to something."



Or maybe this is all show, Google (which seems to be one step ahead) is a huge corporation ( Evil). They know everything James Demore wrote in his memo is spot on. But they see which way the PC wind is blowing. So they go over board on diversity on everything, knowing it is all about image (and so you don't get your ass sued). This will keep everyone off their backs even though there will always be a discrepancy in pay and hiring at Google.
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [Dirty Bottles] [ In reply to ]
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Dirty Bottles wrote:
Not sure why "science" is in quotes.

He's using constant references to "facts and reasons" as a shield. He claims to be using only facts and reason: "Only facts and reason can shed light on these biases" Which whenever I hear phrases like that I worry. Because when you're really using facts and reason, you don't need to announce it in advance and constantly remind everyone how factual you are.

But then he slips into totally unsubstantiated claims. He claims that Google has slipped into, "extreme and authoritarian elements of this ideology." But what are those? Having mandatory "unconscious bias training?" Or classes restricted only women or only men? Is that really "extreme and authoritarian?" I hate some mandatory training too, but come on.

He's also inconsistent. He claims a lack of "psychological safety." But then provides no real evidence of how Google is currently not "psychologically safe," except some classes and programs and his feeling like he's being ignored. He says men could be labeled "misogynistic" if they protest against these programs, but doesn't claim that he actually was. Or makes no real claim except his seemingly general claims of being ideologically marginalized.

So basically all this leftist bias makes him feel bad, and he wants to feel more safe. But one of his bullet points is that Google should "de-emphasize empathy."

So who cares about others' feelings - but my feelings - those are precious and need to be kept safe.

He's turning the tactics and rhetoric of the leftist agenda (e.g. studies on psychological safety, unconscious bias, etc) against the leftist agenda itself. Which is clever, but not a new tactic (for example the current claim of bias against Asians in Affirmative Action is using the tactics pioneered by the Civil Rights movement against the Civil Rights movement itself).

But underneath that all, I don't sense that this is an honest attempt at dialog. It's a venting session.
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [trail] [ In reply to ]
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I would argue Googles firing him kind of proves his point about "extreme and authoritarian elements"....but hey I guess they didn't bury him in a ditch behind headquarters so there is that.

But the science I was talking about was his discussion around gender differences, personality theory (as it relates to political preference), etc.
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
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Tibbsy wrote:
The quote is awful. Again it is so broad as to not have meaning. Quote me on this, The sun comes up in the morning and down in the evening.

I think context is everything and your interpretation is clearly not applicable. Not sure why you are clinging to the 'too broad' objection, because it is pretty easy to understand the intended context and silly to drag out hyperbolic, hypothetical, and invalid analogies.

RangerGress has pretty much said as much, but I will take issue with one comment he made regarding the applicability of this quote in the workplace. I have been having a discussion with my 18YO son headed to college next week about the differences between starting your own business and working for yourself vs. working for someone else. I have a close friend that is a multi-millionaire after starting his own business 20 years ago. His son did the same in a completely different business and is also a millionaire at the age of 30. I contrasted these two stories with my own. I have been extremely successful and I can't argue with the income I have enjoyed, but I work for a corporation and have to answer to a hierarchy of bosses. I have seen many people in our organization that were not able to grasp the concept that they may live in a democracy, but they, more or less, work in a dictatorship. Now, it actually isn't as bad as it sounds in my company, but there is no question that there are limits to the notion of free speech when it comes to internal communications. Criticism of senior management based on personal opinions is not something that is spewed publicly without some self-censoring. So, I'd say my bosses, to a degree, 'rule over me', but I submit willfully for the benefits I enjoy as a result. I have seen a lot of people leave the company because they just can't take the 'corporate rat race' anymore. Essentially, they just don't want their lives to be ruled with respect to what they can say, when they come in to work, when they can take vacation, etc.

Greg

If you are a Canuck that engages in gratuitous bashing of the US, you are probably on my Iggy List. So, save your self a bunch of typing a response unless you also feel the need to gratuitously bash me. If so, have fun.
"Don't underestimate Joe's ability to f___ things up" - Barack Obama, 2020
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Re: Voltaire "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [gregtryin] [ In reply to ]
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The quote doesn't make sense to me because who the hell says whatever they want and no on ever takes objection to it? What is the meaning of "not allowed to criticize"? That quote is simply an empty nothing. It sounds good as long as you don't think about it.
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Re: "Voltaire- To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [getcereal] [ In reply to ]
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Popper - "We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant."

The echo chamber is intolerant. He was intolerant of their intolerance to other views. He got fired........

It is a view i have been coming round to over time that liberals are tolerant only as long as you agree with them
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Re: "Voltaire- To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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"It is a view i have been coming round to over time that liberals are tolerant only as long as you agree with them "

Very true but isn't that true of all groups?
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