Sorry, misread your response.

You're welcome for taking the time to look at your videos as you have requested and openly accepted and tried the responses given.

But seriously, Jason, you're stroke rate, without even looking at the videos again, is about 1 second per stroke. Ive seen enough swimming to know. Its probably closer to .9 but you can do the math on that. When you finish reading this post, open up your iPhone or get a stopwatch or look at a clock w a second hand. At that point I want you to FULLY inhale AND FULLY exhale EVERY SECOND. Let me know how long you go before you pass out or see stars or fall over. And be honest in the fact that it is physically IMPOSSIBLE to exhale all of your air in that timeframe... for anyone. Typically a full exhale with force to clear above 75% of your lung volume takes 3 to 4 seconds.

Breathing every 3 or 5 strokes (or really when you need to breath as we do on land) helps you to balance your chemicals within your bloodstream so your brain can stay engaged and you can, as my first email said, notice the asymmetry from either side of your axis (spinal column from brain to butt.. but really through the head and past the feet). This way you can then mimic on your left side, when you're breathing, to the same simpler and more useful movement that is happening on your right side when you are not breathing.

THEN.. when you have a great sense of that rhythm and symmetry difference, you can make changes by doing less! not more. Oh and be faster.

Good Luck
DaveD
Ps please dont hyperventilate and pass out. I am not saying you need to do that to prove my point!

let me rephrase. All of my exhalation is done underwater. Better?

Virtually no-one at the male elite level breathes every 3 strokes at any distance from the 200 and up. A few women do, but not many. And most definitely no-one breathes 5 in anything over a 50 except at the finish.

So not to dismiss what you are suggesting out of hand, but you need to present some pretty strong evidence to me to want to do something that goes against what every decent swimmer is doing.

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Jason,

New tact here...

Im not sure what other sports you do, but I will use me as an example. I love basketball. Grew up with it almost everyday. Wanted to play in HS (and then college and pro.. ha) but it conflicted w swimming season and my "Bobby Knight" type of swim coach wasn't about to let me play ball and sit on the bench when I could swim for him.

So, to spend time w Micheal Jordan giving me tips would be a dream come true!! Right? But if the first thing he did was put a plastic bag over my head? I, nor anyone, would not give a FLYING F$%# what he was saying about basketball bc all my brain would care about is getting that bag off my head to breathe.
Does that make sense to you? Compelling enough?

It is essentially, from a land based brain function perspective, the same situation when you put your face in the water. Now... we are also, breath-holding animals in stressful situations. So, cutting off your breathing supply by submerging your breathing apparatus, then jacking your HR up w physical exertion and the stress that creates, is a recipe for NOT breathing effectively at all. Breathing is part "in" part "out" and part "pause". I am simply encouraging you to try something that is so clearly different than ANY other advice that you will get on this forum... Honestly it is a little bit surprising that you are being this argumentative. Have you tried anything I have advocated? Can you really empty your lungs and refill them comfortably in the span of .893 (your stroke rate I went back and checked). And to address your last point.. those "decent" swimmers are the fastest swimmers in the world. Mr Le Clos beat Mr Phelps... and Id love to put an end to watching those videos for triathletes once and for all. I mean, they are fun to watch and fascinating for sure! Just like watching Mr Bolt run.. but neither you NOR I can actually do what they do. So decent is an understatement. They are the best in the world. And to get to be the best in the world they had to learn. And to learn they had to experiment with athletic endeavors. Make no mistake Mr Halifax, breathing is an athletic endeavor and with regards to the sport of swimming it may be the most critical to master. Those elite swimmers are swimming events that last, at most 15min. But after that the longest is basically half that time. They are not riding and running after. Please stop watching something that so clearly does not apply to what you are trying to do.

I will be happy to discuss this until the cows come home Jason. But don't do yourself and others following this a huge disservice by arguing something you have not, nor seem willing to even consider, let alone try.

You owe me nothing. You came here for help. I am graciously trying to help you, to provoke thought and not just tell you to grab a pull buoy or some bs floatation swimsuit and you'll be okay.
I wish you the best of luck. But please come back with some experience on what I have talked about and not just to ignorantly argue.

DaveD

First of all, he's not breathing every 0.9 sec but every 1.8 sec, e.g. every stroke cycle, not every single arm stroke. Secondly, Jason in his prime swam around 1:52 for 200scm, which not that far off what the top swimmers do (low 1:40s for 200 scm). Third, I know for a fact that he has done plenty of sets where the coach asked for him to breath every 3 or 5 strokes. Fourth, Jason is not even a triathlete any longer but rather is a pure Masters swimmer. At 45 he can still go around 2:00 for 200 scm. In sum, it actually does make sense for him to watch the youtube videos of top swimmers.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Ok, I'm really trying to be open minded here, but what are you saying exactly? That to fix his technique he needs to breathe every ~5-7 strokes for everything all the time? Or that to focus on his inefficiencies he should breathe less? If it's the latter, I can see the point, but then tell him, or anyone for that matter, to get a damn front mount snorkel.

If it's the former, you're going to have to be a lot more clear. I think Jason only swims (no tris anymore, right?).

If you're advocating forcing breaths 100% in and out every 5-7 strokes, you're going to stress the system a hell of a lot more than if you're taking a comfortable breath every 2-3 strokes.

Personally I train bilaterally - some left, some right, up til ~threshold pace and beyond, then it's right side only.

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I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html

Mr Mulk exaggerates a little, in my prime I was only a 1:56 200 free guy (SCM). in 2016 I went a 2:04.16 for the 200 free.

I am primarily a 100 fly, 100/200/400 free guy these days, every so often I'll do the 100 back or 100/200 IM for a change of pace. I'm certainly not a triathlete any more, I might do one here and there, but it isn't my focus. Last one I did was 2 years ago.

the bag analogy is just weird, as I'm never holding my breath when I swim.

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That's how I understood it, to breath less so he could focus on symmetry, but if that's the case, a snorkel would be much better. I'm a tower26 subscriber and we use the snorkel, pull buoy, and ankle strap for this.

On pull sets I often breathe to the left, and often every 4th stroke. Swimming I'll breathe ether bilaterally or to the right. in a race or race pace work, it's definitely every stroke on the right, and sometimes a double breath into the wall. because oxygen.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Eric,

i looked back through the thread and didn't see you offering advice.
Maybe you should offer up your thoughts?

His times are impressive for sure. Is this where i tout my swimming ability and my coaching experience and history? or is this where you try to actually help someone who is asking, rather than going after one who is trying to help?

I will concede to you 1.8 seconds, your math is right on that (as hurriedly responded the first time). Same principle applies though and it falls within the reach of hyperventilation.

Did jason from halifax come out of the womb with the ability to run right away too? or did he go through the typical 9-13 month of development that every other human in history has had to go through?
The answer is no, he didn't come out running. Before he could run he had to walk. before he could walk he had to figure out how to stand up, before he figured that out, he had to crawl, before that lift his head/arm/leg/fingers etc and before all of that.. when he first showed up... he had to breathe in his new environment. I'm sorry this seems so esoteric to you. I dont mean to sound condescending or uppity. I'm simply trying to help a man who clearly can already swim (though mr le clos does those times backstroke and in warm up so watching those videos still doesn't help) and provide a different approach to aquatic improvement/efficiency.

All im advocating is playing with your breathing. Making it athletic. I see there have been more responses. Ill continue to try help mr halifax. I encourage you to do the same

Good luck,

Dave D

Thanks TallSwimmer..

internet is fun huh..
i think you're spot on. Im not advocating 100% of the time he stick to breathing every 3 or 5 strokes. In fact, i hope all swimmers breathe just as they do when on land and do it based on need. But if he is leisurely swimming 50s on 55 in the middle of a set breathing every stroke.. that is unnecessary.
Center mount snorkels can help for sure but it is the breath movement in particular that screws everything up. He would prob be significantly less asymmetrical with the snorkel and as such not be able to pick up on the nuance of the rotation and the disruption. I think its best to keep that disruption in there so he might be able to tell a difference.

Swimming is a "sensation-sport" not necessarily a "directional-sport" (like do this or do that) one has to FEEL the differences in rhythm, symmetry, ease of movement through the skeleton and all with a vestibular presence (which brings in surface relationship and more NEAR sensory feedback about breathing etc)

So I'm just trying to help him with this one aspect.

But watching chad le clos in this discussion does nothing for it.

I hope that clears this up a bit.

if not.. happy to try again.

daved

Jason,

you're a helluva swimmer! no doubt about it.
Those are great times. But you and i both know they are not taking either of us to world champs and no one on YOUTUBE is taping us to show the world. So again, fun to watch for sure...but not necessarily useful to you (on this subject).

Im trying to just help you with your asymmetry. You took the time to post two videos and ask for help. I know you think you're breathing out. But I promise you, you are not. It is impossible in that timeframe of .9 or 1.8 or 2.7. You're clearly swimming easily at about 14 strokes per length (according to the video) hard to tell where the wall is ... but ill say again, you're a very good swimmer. Its easy to see. No normal symptoms, dropped elbow, hand flare, foot flare, head lift, hip sink blah blah blah

But you're support arm for the breath is not propelling you forward as effectively as it could be. It helps you get a breath bc well... you know, oxygen, and i bet it feels substantially "stronger" than your other arm... but i think you could put that strength to better use with having the athletic ability to breathe on either side of your long axis and while we will always PREFER one side to the other, i think there is learning and improvement from exploring how the breath, the breath movement and that preferred side could be more efficient.

To help satisfy your elite craving.. this type of work really helped a woman coming back to the sport get an american record and subsequent olympic gold medals back in the day. And it is a practice still being explored by elites all over the world.

Good luck.
I am happy to try to help.

DaveD

hey look, give it a go!?!? what have you got to lose? try it like hell and fail at it, then come back and tell me I'm full of it and i can handle that. But I've tried all the toys, the drills, the equipment... but in the races, pool or ows... all i have is me!

Nope, not clear at all, but that's ok. Different strokes for different folks (see what I did there?)

Jason, I saw a big gap in your kick and a late breath. They are interrelated. As others have suggested- get your breath earlier, and think abo compressing your kick through the the breath. I'll take another peak at the videos and let you know if anything else pops up that hasn't been covered.

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I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html

Ha ha I do see what you did there.

When he breathes (or anyone for that matter who prefers to only breath on one side vs the other) they develop asymmetries. BC the breath side demands more generally speaking, (effort/rotation etc).

There are impacts on efficiency that be LEARNED by feeling the RHYTHM change when the breath occurs vs the when it does not.

His "loping" or "galloping" is centered around the breath and is an acceleration (fine) followed by a deceleration (not good) bc then the acceleration must happen again. That is a big energy expenditure. Especially say... EVERY STROKE CYCLE. No? So keeping a consistent rhythm when breathing or not is more efficient swimming. Thus less energy expenditure and thus faster.

Better breathing = better swimming (generically)

Thanks, I'll look at that when I'm back in the water next week. Heading to the campground now with the kids, so I won't be able to really play with anything too much before Monday . Well, might get a little bit of open water swim in , but not holding my breath.

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And for the record.. his breath COULD come sooner in that stroke cycle IF he were EXHALING

DaveD

A lot of words there, and I'm not that smart.

Break it down what you think I should do or change into 2 simple bullet points. Otherwise I won't be able to remember what to do.

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Bullet points
sound bites
...ohhh whats that ONE THING thats gonna make me super fast!?!?! Pull buoy? Paddles? no.. a SNORKEL!! Or better yet ill just sign up for all races that allow me to wear a wetsuit and not train in the swim at all!!!

Those things just dont work.

The single most important skill in swimming effectively (faster and easier) is breathing. Work on it. Play with it. Read about it. Study it. Have fun with it. Get to know it and use it. And your new skills at it will help your swimming. It will help everyones swimming. You want to come down to boston and spend a day with me... Id be happy to host you. And share my knowledge and experience w a swimmer who cares about improving. But sound bites don't cut it. And i think you're smarter than you're giving yourself credit. Don't be like that. Us swimmers gotta stick together and keep finding ways to improve. Seriously, good luck.

DaveD

I don't have a trained eye, so perhaps that's why I do not see any real issue with his breathing. And given his age and the times he posted, there can't be too much wrong with it. I still see the arms, perhaps only the left one, going just a bit deeper than maybe the ideal would be. Outside that....well like I say, I don't have a trained eye. Just from curiosity, I would like to know your typical backstroke pace (during the IM).

Not asking for the one magic bullet, I know that much. But it is easier to focus on one small cue rather than a bazillion different things. That's why coaches have talked about "reaching over the barrel" on the catch, and "elbow your brother, phone your mother" for open turns.

I "play " with things in the water all the time. That's something I already do, so what I need are different things to focus on.

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I'll give you a couple of simple things to think about next swim.
You are tucking your chin instead of pushing the top of your head deeper into the water to create your breathing trough, this is a big part of your misalignment.

Try opening out your chin a little, push the top of your head a little deeper and this should stop the rush to start you left stroke as your breathing will not upset your balance as much.
This will also allow you to breathe a little earlier.
Then too concrete it, make sure you quite conciously reach a little with your left hand before beginning your stroke.

Neal,

I have not done an IM for years. My last 100yd IM was at a new england masters meet maybe.. 3 years ago. or 4. So i would not be able to answer that. Sorry.

daved

Jason,

one thing to focus on or cue is your exhale. you do it all the time every day. So work at it more and develop a better working knowledge of it, you will discover you can exhale more than you think.
In the water, fill your lungs and float. NO swimming. And exhale until you sink.
Repeat.
Repeat. etc etc etc

Cue on the time and volume and effort it takes to expel the amount of air until you sink. Then swim easily enough but focus only on taking that INHALE, AFTER you have had the exact same sensation of our previous exhales when you were just floating there until you sank.

I would encourage you to notice this and other threads and (basically) all the swimming products out there that focus on hands and feet. Paddles, fins, reaching over the barrel, finger tip drag, every possible combination of finger extension, fists, catch up, hand shake, 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 kicks/per pull.. the list goes on and on and all of those things are non axial skeleton based. They are based on our brains desire to achieve feedback from our stabilizing (on land) tools (far sensory) IE our hands and feet and a balance system built on being upright for survival. I hope not too wordy.

One cue. EXHALE.
Im curious to know how this goes. PM if you want to take this offline.

Good Luck!
daved

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