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Re: Divorce and Empty Nesters [JD21] [ In reply to ]
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JD21 wrote:
Well, we can all look forward to you driving around your RV when you're 80 yrs old!

Old people driving normal sized cars are bad enough [trust me, I've lived in Florida] ... imagine them in Winnebagos!!!



"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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Re: Divorce and Empty Nesters [SH] [ In reply to ]
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SH wrote:
BLeP wrote:
SH wrote:
BLeP wrote:
SH wrote:
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How does a couple let this happen?

Well, they could have made it as long as they did for the children. Or at least the good of the children factored heavily into the decision.


Yup. Stay together for the kids.

A terrible decision. But many do this.

Oh good, a cliche. Always nice to get those on the table.


What part is the cliche? That people say (and do) this? (They do) or that it's a terrible decision? (It is)
The cliche is that it's automatically a terrible decision. It seems like a totally unexamined assumption IMHO.

First, there's all kinds of science that concludes children of married couples do better on a variety of levels. Second, it's stupid to suggest that the kids not even enter into the decision. And that's the only way to ensure you aren't staying together for the kids. "Yeah, we had kids, but fuck it if their well being is going to enter our minds when it comes to such an important decision."

For me it would actually be the other way around. Staying together for the kids is -- by default -- the best decision for the kids unless you've got extreme circumstances that would warrant a different decision. In other words, unless you were getting divorced for the kids.

I dunno. Maybe there's a cliche there too. Is getting divorced for the kids always a terrible decision?

Well the vast majority of couples will fight non stop if they are staying together "for the kids". This is not good.

If (big if) you can live together amicably and raise kids together then great. But that is very rare.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Divorce and Empty Nesters [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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BLeP wrote:
Well the vast majority of couples will fight non stop if they are staying together "for the kids". This is not good.

If (big if) you can live together amicably and raise kids together then great. But that is very rare.

D'Wife were having a bad time many years ago, and things looked like it would be the end

I'd go to bed and silently say to her "Sleep well. I'll likely divorce you in the morning"

Well, much like Wesley and The Dread Pirate Roberts, it didn't exactly work out that way; today is our 25th Wedding Anniversary

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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Re: Divorce and Empty Nesters [RandMart] [ In reply to ]
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Nice work, congratulations! I'm sure some good lessons learned in there.
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Re: Divorce and Empty Nesters [RandMart] [ In reply to ]
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RandMart wrote:
BLeP wrote:
Well the vast majority of couples will fight non stop if they are staying together "for the kids". This is not good.

If (big if) you can live together amicably and raise kids together then great. But that is very rare.


D'Wife were having a bad time many years ago, and things looked like it would be the end

I'd go to bed and silently say to her "Sleep well. I'll likely divorce you in the morning"

Well, much like Wesley and The Dread Pirate Roberts, it didn't exactly work out that way; today is our 25th Wedding Anniversary

About six months ago I got into a pretty heated argument with the missus. I told her "you answer me like that again, and I'll give you half of everything I own." That straightened her up.
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Re: Divorce and Empty Nesters [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
But even now I have the struggles you all have, just have a bit more patience and time to deal with them. I need to try to work on my wife more, the kids do present a total energy suck at times. I'm just very lucky in that she turned out to me mom of the year, every year. So for now that empty nest is well into the future, but most who are there or about to be always say it goes by fast so don't blink!!

Yes, you did marry quite above your pay grade!

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: Divorce and Empty Nesters [JD21] [ In reply to ]
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Cant help but wonder if there's any significant differentiation in the trendlines depending on how long a couple was together prior to starting a family. My wife and I were a pair for a good 8-9 years prior to kid #1, so we have a decent track record of doing stuff together w/o having everything revolving around the kids, and don't have such a hard time reverting back to that when they're gone for whatever reason. We just had the older one move back in for the summer, and we're definitely eager to help him, uh, "re-establish his independence..."
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Re: Divorce and Empty Nesters [OneGoodLeg] [ In reply to ]
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I was thinking the same earlier - wife and I were married for 5 yrs before kids and traveled together extensively during that time and settled in a bit. I can see kiddos earlier on wouldn't allow the marriage to settle in. The divorce rate has increased dramatically in the past 10 yrs which I would expect is a combination of what you suggested plus the general cultural sentiment in prior generations that one doesn't divorce (particularly women). The studies I read stated that women are the main drivers of the divorces of empty nesters so that seems to correlate.
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Re: Divorce and Empty Nesters [JD21] [ In reply to ]
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Married 5 years before we started trying for a child and 7 when she got here

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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Re: Divorce and Empty Nesters [JD21] [ In reply to ]
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The divorce rate has increased dramatically in the past 10 yrs ....

Really? Do you have a link for that? I could expect a blip rise in divorce rates, but the trend for the past 30 years has been a drop in divorce rates.


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Re: Divorce and Empty Nesters [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]
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There's a link in the OP...this is specifically related to 'empy nesters' as per my OP.

Here's a snippet:

"These women have plenty of company. Since 1990 the divorce ratehas doubled to 1 in 4 for couples over age 50. And researchers found after age 40 it’s often the wife who wants the divorce."
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Re: Divorce and Empty Nesters [JD21] [ In reply to ]
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There are only two ways for any marriage to end

Death or Divorce

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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Re: Divorce and Empty Nesters [RandMart] [ In reply to ]
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anullment - and what do you know, you're leaving loved ones in strip bars in Cleveland!
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Re: Divorce and Empty Nesters [JD21] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, I left that one out, because it means that [much like the Apollo moon landings, Rocky V and Van Halen III] the marriage never really happened, so it can't really end?

Or can it?

Yeah, I'll have to tell you the Cleveland story sometime

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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Re: Divorce and Empty Nesters [JD21] [ In reply to ]
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This is a tricky situation and, frankly, I fear it happening in 15 years.

Sometimes the most brave thing a person can do is stay & be there for their family and kids, even if they take no grand action. Sometimes the most brave thing a person can do is divorce earlier on. Sometimes it's a clear decision; most of the time it's not. And nobody else knows the war better than those in that war.

It's just not clear cut, and I can absolutely see how and why it happens.
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Re: Divorce and Empty Nesters [JD21] [ In reply to ]
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You could always make a sex tape

Bring that spark back!
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Re: Divorce and Empty Nesters [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
JD21 wrote:
and I can see that it will take some time and energy to reconnect as all of our time and energy in the marriage has been focused on the kids. At the same time, we've changed along the way as well.



How does a couple let this happen? Yes, kids are an enormous time/money/energy suck, but you are married to someone forever (supposedly) and it would seem to be pretty important to maintain that marriage every day. Parents should not be two individuals, but a team that works together to do the job.

(speaking as someone coming up on 21 years of marriage, one daughter a rising college sophomore, and one a rising HS freshman)

And failing to keep the marriage relationship strong is also failing to raise the children correctly. As children mature into teens, they look for that relationship as a template for how their relationships will be in the future. If they see unhealthy relationships, they will adopt them as their own, extending the failures into the next generation when their kids see their parent failures. My parents had an unhealthy relationship as my father was not faithful to my mother and a mean drunk who enjoyed scaring both his wife and his children, and my mother accepted that until she had no other choice but to leave him.

I would have had that for an example if not for an aunt and uncle who did have a strong relationship, and exhibited their love and friendship for each other in front of me when I spent summers in their house. I chose to use the two examples as one to pattern my own relationships on, and the other as what NOT to do in my relationships. That has been a successful choice, once I overcame a few problems that were not related to how I treated my partners.
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Re: Divorce and Empty Nesters [SH] [ In reply to ]
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First, there's all kinds of science that concludes children of married couples do better on a variety of levels. Second, it's stupid to suggest that the kids not even enter into the decision. And that's the only way to ensure you aren't staying together for the kids. "Yeah, we had kids, but fuck it if their well being is going to enter our minds when it comes to such an important decision."

For me it would actually be the other way around. Staying together for the kids is -- by default -- the best decision for the kids unless you've got extreme circumstances that would warrant a different decision. In other words, unless you were getting divorced for the kids.



Look up the research and/or books by Judith Wallerstein

Yes - an intact and great marriage with two loving parents with great communication is the best situation.

Surprisingly to many, a not very good situation is when the parents stay together for the kids. The parents THINK it helpful - but the long term negative consequences of this on the kids can be particularly not very good.

Kids fair reasonably to very well in the, "good divorce" - very similar to the fully intact marriages. But a "good divorce" may be one of the hardest and most challenging things you have ever done - believe me, I went through it. What kept me going was ALWAYS putting the needs/feelings of my son first and having my Ex act/behave in the same manner ( I was rather lucky in this regard - I know it's not always the case), and keeping in good, open and honest communication with her*. We both had to give-up a lot of things. We both had to put other things aside. We both had to bury some pretty strong and powerful emotions, and move forward. It was hard!

*The problem with divorce, and if you want one of those good divorces is that when there are kids involved, the post-divorce communication, actually has to INCREASE - both in the amount of communication and the quality of it and it has to stay that way for YEARS!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Last edited by: Fleck: Aug 3, 17 16:09
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