I can't speak to what the US does, I do know that Canada in co-operation with the provincial trades branches have established national education standards. Commonly known as the Red Seal program, an apprentice can elect to take the red seal course which indicates that they meet the education standards of all provinces. In a addition to this, a journey person may also wish to extend their level of competency by taking business oriented courses. That in my province at least is known as the blue seal program.

I'm just having a hard time thinking of any career path where algebra isn't helpful. Homekeeping (understanding interest compounding while loan shopping or looking at credit cards), cooking (scaling recipes), gardening, carpentry. Every damn thing. Basic symbolic math just makes you a lot effing better at life. Just like basic language and writing skills make you a lot better at life.

Also I'd be hesitant to recommend a trade to any kid who has any sort of aptitude for "higher learning." The "trades" got largely left behind in earning growth starting around the 1970's. Advanced degrees account for just about all the wage growth since then.

The mean wage for an electrician is nearly $55k. For plumbers, it's about $50k. Brickmasons, about $48k, carpenters about $42k. Those aren't upper class earnings, but they aren't bad, and they're a hell of a lot better than managing a fast food joint, and those types of jobs contribute to the overall economy, and can be paths to owning your own business, or moving into general contracting or construction management.

It's shameful that we don't encourage more kids to explore trades, and try to force all the various pegs into the same college sized hole.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

All the more reason to learn algebra early. :) Because you definitely need it as a business owner.

Quote:

This requirement is not necessarily because college level education is required for the job, but just because it's a way to discriminate between applicants. So if people are prevented from being competitive in the job market because of a piece of paper that doesn't really have much to do with whether or not they're qualified to do the job, it might make sense to adjust what it takes to get that piece of paper so that it's more in line with job requirements.

So we get useless pieces of paper to people who need useless pieces of paper. This is one of those economic solutions that seem marginally useful when considered at an individual level. However, when looked at from a more global, systemic level there's quite literally zero value add here. We would be eliminating a way to relevantly discriminate between potential employees when another way to discriminate must be found -- there can only be one employee filling each job. In this case there may even be value destroyed as the proposal will erode the usefulness of a college level education in preparing employees for future job performance (and in helping employers estimate future job performance).

You're assuming that having passed algebra is a relevant way to discriminate. The person in the article is suggesting that we take a closer look at the data to find out if that's actually true, and if not, then consider adjusting curriculum to something more relevant.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

And we do. It's called High School.

The algebra I learned in High School is way more advanced than anything I have had to do since I started working. I am 100% certain that trades people do not need to learn college level algebra.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Well then it shouldn't be an issue in CC. But it sounds like it is?

Re-read the rest of what I wrote...


The algebra I learned in High School is way more advanced than anything I have had to do since I started working. I am 100% certain that trades people do not need to learn college level algebra.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

I got that. I'm just not certain we're talking about "college-level algebra" vs. just "basic algebra." If you think a high % of incoming CC students are proficient in algebra, you might be wrong. Part of the role of a CC is remedial education for students who blew off high school but suddenly realize they have to start taking life seriously.

Edit: OK, they used the term "intermediate algebra." So maybe more than H.S. Maybe you're right. But I'm not sure what intermediate algebra is.

Then you would be wrong.
Trades and trade school are actually pretty math heavy. The trig I was doing in trade school was around on par with what I learned in first year university. Electrical school is more math focused then that as well. It is rare you use it in the field, but important to understand the concept behind what you're doing. Also, when you're actually applying it in the field, you are usually doing so under less then ideal conditions (noisy, dusty, possibly at heights, etc). I remember the first time I built a large roof with hand cut rafters as opposed to pre-assembled trusses thinking how difficult even relatively simple calculations were when you are scribbling them down on plywood and not sitting at a desk in a quiet air conditioned classroom.

All plumbers need to know is how to tie their shoes and multiply their $90/hr rate by how many hours they spent at your place, then multiply that number by 2 on your invoice.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

Yes.
As someone just out of the US public school system, and headed to a 4 year, I'll vouch for this. Some of our worst teachers were kept because of their AP scores. Talking to people in the class i'm specifically thinking of, they would have 20 person study groups during the weekends because they wouldn't be taught during the week.

More in line with the previous post i'm replying to, I had a class that we made F*CKING PANCAKES in every morning. In "Writing and Research for College." And when people started falling behind (God knows how, we only read three books over the whole year), it was always onto extra credit and "just turn it in when you finish," "what help do you need."

Crazy